Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[BigV]

Hey, I looked up Straw Man fallacy.

Review the thread:

wolf's question:
where did they get cuffs to fit a kid?

BigV's answer:
they didn't. they used plastic ties.

BigV's explanation for answer:
steel cuffs didn't work, because they're too big. I implied that the cuffs are only too big because the wrists are too small.

Draw your own conclusions. My answer said nothing about about whether the cops shouldn't do it or shouldn't need to do it.

Methinks the lady and others doth protest too much.

[mrnoodle]

BigV, is it the image of the girl wearing handcuffs that's so objectionable, or the actual long-term effect on the child herself? Because she'll live. Having to hold her hands behind her back for 15 minutes will not scar her nearly as deeply as 1) whatever environment fostered her acting out; 2) being allowed to throw tantrums unchecked; 3) growing up in a world where your every action is viewed through a filter of pop psychology and victimhood rather than personal responsibility.

I suspect that you are the kind of empathetic person who sees your own child in the eyes of every other child, and that's a good thing. But not every child is as well-adjusted as yours, and not every teacher is a trained expert in handling every random behavioral oddity that comes through her door.

Ok, say you're a teacher. Class is proceeding normally, when suddenly Sybil starts spewing green puke from the back of the room. You have 10 seconds to restore order. 3,2,1, GO.
...try to hug her, she tries to claw your eyes out
...try to explain to her, she screams and spits, not hearing a word
...try to remove her from the classroom by taking her arm. Oops, you left a mark. Abuse! call the ACLU!
...try to remember page 57 of whatever flavor-of-the-month child development manual you read last week. I think it had something to do with "strong-willed children". OW! the (edit: brat)bit me.

10 minutes, not seconds, have now elapsed, and you have a case study in demon possession still raving in front of you. Come on, you're the teacher! Fix it, NOW! But don't screw up, or you'll lose your job and won't be able to make your mortgage or care for your own children. Plus, know that every action you take is a possible lawsuit in the making, not to mention a possible life-altering event for the foaming monster in front of you (within whom, somewhere, is a little girl).

Not quite so easy as Monday morning quarterbacking, is it?

[Troubleshooter]

Let's try a few flows here...

A) most perpetrators are adults or adult sized
B) handcuffs are used in the handling of perpetrators
C) most handcuffs are sized for adults

A) the least number of perpetrators are children or child sized
B) handcuffs are used in the handling perpetrators
C) the least number of handcuffs are sized for children

A) most situations a police officer will have to deal with are adults
B) many situations will require handcuffs
C) most handcuffs are adult sized
D) most officers carry handcuffs
D) most are adult sized handcuffs

Am I far off base here?

[BigV]

3,2,1 go.

on the fly, quick reply.

Sybil, are you ok? Sybil?! no, ok, grab the trashcan and the paper towels on the way to the back of the room. Johhny, a good kid in the front row, Johnny, go to the office and tell Mrs Smith we need help right away! Go, now. Hurry.

Sybil--what's wrong honey, you're pretty sick. Are to taking any medicine? Clawing and raving? Sounds like a seizure. Let's get down on the floor. Rebecca, Harry, move those desks and chairs out of the way, thanks guys. Ok, Sybil. here we go, down on the floor. You're ok. I'm here to help. Can you breathe ok? No, it's ok, stay down on the floor, lie on your side. I'm right here with you. It's gonna be ok, it's gonna be all right, honey. All right... Lisa, go next door and ask Mrs Thomas to come here, quickly, please. Go on. Go, go.

Ok, *louder* Class! Sybil's sick and I'm trying to help her. I need your help too. Please stay in your seats, the nurse and the principal are on their way. Just sit quietly for now, please. That would be a biiig help to me, thank you, thank you very much.

*continue rendering aid until help arrives* That help would hopefully be my next door teacher, the principal, the nurse, and maybe the paramedics and the cops. Somebody's gonna call mom and dad too, for sure. My job as the first responder is to give the first help, not the best help.

I have been spat on, shit on, hit, bit, and kicked, called every name in the book, in more than one language. I've dodged and caught pictures and vases and books. I've had to talk with cops, paramedics, firemen, parents, siblings, bystanders, tow truck drivers, victims, victims families, strangers, my kids, my parents.

I've had to explain myself, defend myself. I've apologized more times than I can count. Sometimes I didn't mean the apology when I said it, but that's another thread: feelings versus facts. Many times I've said Eureka! and sometimes out loud even. I have been known to change my position. I've been cried on, I've cried with, I've cried alone.

I wonder every day if I could have done better, and make that the plan for tomorrow.

MMQB? No. Livin is harder, and more rewarding than monday morning qb'ing. Analyzing what happend and what can be learned is valuable on Monday, though.

[mrnoodle]

You are diagnosing a temper tantrum as a seizure. I don't have the medical knowledge to refute you, but I don't buy it. I have to defer to your apparent expertise, but I smell something funny about it. In the first place, every 5-year-old in the room knows a shit fit when they see one. They've tried em themselves.

If what happened that day was a medical emergency, I'll just have to take the word of medical folks.

But what about the first question? Is it the image of a child being restrained by police that's objectionable, or is there actually lasting psychological harm to the child?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

You are diagnosing a temper tantrum as a seizure. I don't have the medical knowledge to refute you, but I don't buy it. I have to defer to your apparent expertise, but I smell something funny about it. In the first place, every 5-year-old in the room knows a shit fit when they see one. They've tried em themselves.--snip--

No, I'm playing along with your hypothetical examples in a previous post. Let me be clear: I do not think the little girl in the video is having a seizure. It is a shit-fit, no question. And you're also right on target about the rest of the kids in class. All of them. That's what make me mad here, who hasn't seen, been, and lived through little kid's shit fits?! Hands? Ok, now how many of those ended in handcuffs? Hands? Zero. Wait, one. This one.

[BigV]

mrnoodle, I want to answer your first question now. I'll wind up repeating some of what I've already said.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I suspect that you are the kind of empathetic person who sees your own child in the eyes of every other child, and that's a good thing. But not every child is as well-adjusted as yours, and not every teacher is a trained expert in handling every random behavioral oddity that comes through her door.

Let me start by saying thank you for the nice compliment. It is not hard for me to see my child in the eyes of every other child. This is not just my hyperactive imagination at work. Gosh this is difficult to explain. Seriously, I know they're not my kids. Duh. But I view them as if they're worthy of the same respect, and effort and love that my kids deserve. And I try to act accordingly. I am straining to avoid melodrama here, but if children are not thought of as precious, and treated as precious, what the fuck are we doing here?

EVERYBODY gets this on some level, tobacco companies, MTV, McDonalds, schools, contries (Italy, negative birthrate, aging population) GW and SS, even the nook-yu-lar family gets it.

Shit.

I started off saying thanks for the compliment and drove it into the ditch. Ok, seriouisly, I do have empathy for children. But not just the good ones. All of them. I aim high. And I am often rewarded only by the effort of the child. But sometimes I am rewarded by their efforts and their success! But even when I am rewarded with scoffs of derision, I know that I have planted seeds of hope and love. The germination and growth of those seeds is not my department. But I sow and plant and water and weed and nurture. The rest (well, really all of it, I'm just a steward) is in God's hands.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

BigV, is it the image of the girl wearing handcuffs that's so objectionable, or the actual long-term effect on the child herself? Because she'll live. Having to hold her hands behind her back for 15 minutes will not scar her nearly as deeply as 1) whatever environment fostered her acting out; 2) being allowed to throw tantrums unchecked; 3) growing up in a world where your every action is viewed through a filter of pop psychology and victimhood rather than personal responsibility.

Yes, the image is horrid.

The long term effects chill me as well. Not only for the child, because I believe that adverse circumstances far worse than this can be overcome. But also for the school and our society as a whole. This should not be how we respond to kid's tantrums. It is an isolated incident? I hope to God it is. Is this the beginning (or continuation) of a trend? Maybe, a strong maybe. Probably, even. That makes me sick.

Sick because it's sooo much emphasis on the symptom at the expense of neglecting the problem. I played water polo in school. It's a tough sport, and I loved it. Our coach would drill us to death. Passes, plays, drills, sprints, manouvers, practice practice practice. Practice makes perfect, right? Coach says NO. Perfect practice makes perfect. His point is that if we practice sloppy, we play sloppy. He's right. If we practice hookin up kindergarteners, that's how we'll play...Bad precedent.

Yeah, she'll live. I have no fears on that score. I know bupkis about her home environment. If you do, share.

I want to take #s 2 and 3 together. Unchecked tantrums and pop psychology and victimhood versus personal responsibility. The personal responsibility idea is key here. The little girl IS responsible for the tantrum, in a...mathematical sense or whatever, literal sense. But what a tantrum is is the loss of control. Sometimes that loss of control can be a conscious decision, like when you dive into a fight. Sometimes it can be faked, just the illusion of the loss of control. I don't think either of these apply to the little girl. It's possible, but I don't think so.

Regardless, I say that the adults bear the final responsibility. What if the kid thinks it's ok to dart into the street, into traffic. Maybe the kid just wasn't thinking, they were just chasing after their ball. Or maybe they knew the rules about the street and decided it was ok and went anyway. The adult now has a responsibility. Standing on sidewalk with the kid? Grab them if possible. Shout NO! STOP! The adult driving the car? Dynamite the brakes or steer around. The kid's behavior propel the situation. Yes, they're responsible in that way. Responsible too for poor judgement or lack of judgement. Now it's up to the adults to act. In this analogy, the teacher and the vice principal are easy on the brakes. Hell, maybe their brakes just aren't that strong.

But the kid's not in control, the teacher couldn't get and keep control, the vice principal is out of her depth. Call the cops. They were able to exert contol. I am sad this happened, as we all are. I am disappointed in the school staff, I have higher expectations. I am alarmed that the cops needed to do what they did to achieve the result they sought: "Jaieesha, you need to calm down and you need to do it now. OK." Then the cuffs. It looks lazy and overcautious. I mean, what the hell! What crime was committed here? Where's the personal safety threat? The cops have a hard job too. No question about it and dangerous as well. It is harder to do just the right thing and no more, but this was more.

[Clodfobble]

I think the problem is not how you view the girl, BigV, but how you view handcuffs. To you, handcuffs are an indication of a crime, and a harsh and painful restraint. To others, handcuffs don't carry the same emotional baggage, and are completely equivalent to holding the child in a bear hug, or restraining them in a strait jacket, or wrapping their arms at their sides with SaranWrap.

The point is restraint, and you've already said you agree with the bear hug as a means of restraint. The only difference is that in a bear hug, the restrainer has the chance of being injured, and can't effectively move the child, say to another classroom, or a squad car, or anywhere away from the situation that started the tantrum.

Hypothetically, if a child had to be restrained and moved out of the room at the same time, how would you do it? What if you had a medical stretcher with straps and leather restraints for the wrists and ankles, would you feel comfortable using that? Can you think of any method of restraint other than a bear hug that you would be comfortable with?

[richlevy]

Well, here's a new one.

Student Suspended Over Call to Mom in Iraq

COLUMBUS, Ga. - A high school student was suspended for 10 days for refusing to end a mobile phone call with his mother, a soldier serving in Iraq, school officials said.

The 10-day suspension was issued because Kevin Francois was "defiant and disorderly" and was imposed in lieu of an arrest, Spencer High School assistant principal Alfred Parham said.

The confrontation Wednesday began after the 17-year-old junior got a call at lunchtime from his mother, Sgt. 1st Class Monique Bates, who left in January for a one-year tour with the 203rd Forward Support Battalion.

Mobile phones are allowed on campus but may not be used during school hours. When a teacher told him to hang up, he refused. He said he told the teacher, "This is my mom in Iraq. I'm not about to hang up on my mom."

Parham said the teen's suspension was based on his reaction to the teacher's request. He said the teen used profanity when taken to the office.

"Kevin got defiant and disorderly," Parham said. "When a kid becomes out of control like that they can either be arrested or suspended for 10 days. Now being that his mother is in Iraq, we're not trying to cause her any undue hardship; he was suspended for 10 days."

If you told me to hang up on my mom or dad who was calling from a war zone and probably could only call once a week or so, I'd do more than use profanity. There are so many ways they could have descalated this.

It's lucky for them they didn't call the cops. When the cops found out why the kid was being arrested, they probably would have tasered the teacher.

Is it 'the new conservatism' or 'Columbine frenzy' here, where the first instinct is total control.

Considering the press this is going to generate for the school district, I'm sure the principal wishes the teacher had used more discretion. God forbid, what would happen if the kid's mom is killed in action and this was his last chance to talk to her?

Me, I would have let the kid stay on the phone and escorted him to a corner or lounge, or at least talked to the mom and found out when the next chance she would have to call.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sounds like a teacher's power trip but there may be more to it. Maybe this is a problem kid or whatever, but it sounds like a bad call.

[wolf]

I don't think there's enough info to make a judgment either ...

If I had a quarter for every time a patient tried for an early discharge with a dead, on life support or dying family member ... I'd have a lot of damn quarters. Phone calls to hospitals and family members not in cahoots with the patient typically resolve this. We've made a lot of these calls, and have gotten positive confirmation on the claim I think maybe two or three times.

[Happy Monkey]

If they have a zero tolerance policy for phone calls, then the teacher doesn't even have to make a judgement call.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

If they have a zero tolerance policy for phone calls, then the teacher doesn't even have to make a judgement call.

He got the call during lunchtime. I'm assuming the kid's mom called at that time because she knew he could take the call then.

Kid's are also always supposed to be in school, unless there is a funeral or some other emergency. Some amount of common sense is necessary.

Should they arrest the kid's mom for disrupting the school routine? I'll bet the kid would be glad if they brought her back for questioning. I wonder if they would have given her leave if her son had been arrested.

From the kid's perspective, the whole situation sucks. I really can't blame him for cursing. I'm not sure if he's a true Army brat or if his mom is guard or reserves. I would guess that at least the regular Army kids have had time to adjust to their parent's chosen profession. The children of National Guard and Reserve soldiers have to face the fact that their parent's part-time job will now put them in a war zone a few thousand miles away for more than a year.

Arrest the kid? For saying that the situation is fucked up?

[Happy Monkey]

That's the problem with zero tolerance policies. No matter how stupid the decision, they can just shrug and say their hands were tied.

[jinx]

Suspension reduced to time served.

The suspension gained national attention Friday, prompting a flood of e-mails to school officials. By Friday afternoon, they told Francois his 10-day suspension would be shortened to the three already served.