London Bombing

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Jag, Czin, and all the other Brits on this site: My apologies for my fellow Americans stupid-assed comments. Radar is beyond help but he's allowed to have a keyboard for some reason. Ignore him.

Actually, Radar is being developed as America's newest weapon in the war on terror. We plan on dropping him in the middle of Afghanistan with a megaphone and a pair of running shoes. In about 2 or 3 hours, every Muslim extremist in the world is going to forget about hating Americans or Europeans in general and concentrate on just one in particular.

Good one, Rich! Yeah, that comment of Radar's was one of the most unfeeling things I've ever read. That's Radar for you.

[richlevy]

Jag, and all the other Brits here, take care of yourselves. I hope they find the bastards.

[Sun_Sparkz]

How can they warn some people as a "thank you" = yeah right, so like that "helpful" westerner is so much nicer, or deserving than the next. Its just such bullshit. People crap on and say "oh but if you only got to know the Muslims (or whoever it is) personally, you would understand their way of life and thinking more."

pfft!

Get to know US more you cowards. Get to know how simple, and pure WE really are. get to know that we are nice, and we are good, and we are not anything BAD!! If they did maybe they would want to give us all "thankyou's" by not bombing us in the first place. even though we don't worship Ala and wear full covering clothes and kill our women if they blink more than the regulated hourly allowed amount for blinking.


I just wish all the bad people would disappear.

[tw]

Wow. The terrorists are winning. They now have us so viciously fighting among ourselves as to escalate to insults. Next comes fisticuffs. Now that will be interesting.

[jaguar]

bruce - they were alerted as soon has he left the building as far as i'm aware, with the clients and work they do they have to be ultracareful about this stuff.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by jaguar

bruce - they were alerted as soon has he left the building as far as i'm aware,

Left home on the way to work that morning?

with the clients and work they do they have to be ultracareful about this stuff.

I hope to fuck your talking about violating client/attorney privilege and not business concerns.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Sun_Sparkz

---snip---People crap on and say "oh but if you only got to know the Muslims (or whoever it is) personally, you would understand their way of life and thinking more."

pfft!

Get to know US more you cowards. Get to know how simple, and pure WE really are. get to know that we are nice, and we are good, and we are not anything BAD!! If they did maybe they would want to give us all "thankyou's" by not bombing us in the first place.--snip--

First let me say that I agree with you that if we were better known by the people who are bombing us, that maybe we wouldn't be bombed. A lot more than maybe, actually, more like almost certainly. In fact I think the truth of that proposition extends even beyond east-west muslim-christian-jew brown-white-black-yellow-red "differences". I think that it is unavoidable that the more you really know another person, the less likely you are to want to bomb them.

Which brings me to me to the point on which you and I agree less. I read your post and I get the sense that you're saying: "Some people tell me to get to know 'them' and things would be better, but I say let 'them' get to know me instead and things will be better". There's a lot of truth to that.

The sticking point for me is this. I can get other people to do diddly-squat. I say "do this, do that" and it's just wind. I have a vanishingly small amount of control over what other people do. But, I do have much more control over what I do. And if I choose to do so, I can learn about 'them'. Which will likely have the positive effects described above. And will possibly have the positive effect of demonstrating to 'them' that: A--I am not bombing them, and B--I value 'them' enough to put forth the effort to learn about them, and that will probably incline them to reciprocrate.

It all starts inside, and the only inside I have access to is my own. That's the only change I can count on making. That's the one I try to make better every day.

[warch]

think that it is unavoidable that the more you really know another person, the less likely you are to want to bomb them.

Unless you are a murderous Islamofacist extreemist blindly convinced of your own revelation and the subhuman nature of your victims. I do not believe there is any rehabilitation possibility there. Recruiting and indoctrination, if we can find a way to break that powerful weapon....

The moderate muslims need more than to just get to know us, they need to get to know and value a new view of themselves.

Originally Posted by warch

Unless you are a murderous Islamofacist extreemist blindly convinced of your own revelation and the subhuman nature of your victims. I do not believe there is any rehabilitation possibility there. Recruiting and indoctrination, if we can find a way to break that powerful weapon....

There are extremists on both sides of the equation. Some are sociopaths who would pose a threat to human life under any circumstances. Why are sociopaths able to recruit followers? Generally something has gone very wrong in the social milieu from which their followers emerge.

Originally Posted by warch

The moderate muslims need more than to just get to know us, they need to get to know and value a new view of themselves.

How do you think moderate Muslims view themselves? Why should moderates get a new view of themselves? Perhaps moderate Christians should do the same. It is not the moderates on either side who have gotten us into this, but the fundamentalists on BOTH sides who are creating the havoc.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by warch

Unless you are a murderous Islamofacist extreemist blindly convinced of your own revelation and the subhuman nature of your victims. I do not believe there is any rehabilitation possibility there. Recruiting and indoctrination, if we can find a way to break that powerful weapon....

Originally Posted by somebody NOT warch

Unless you are a murderous Christofacist extreemist blindly convinced of your own revelation and the subhuman nature of your victims. I do not believe there is any rehabilitation possibility there. Recruiting and indoctrination, if we can find a way to break that powerful weapon....

Bonus points if you can find the functional difference in these two quotes. How is it that an "Islamic" whacko is irredeemable? It is the "islam" or is it the "whacko" that makes it so? I thought we established some time ago that this is not repeat not a religious issue, irrespective of the language used to camoflage it. There are often levers pulled and buttons pushed on all sides that are connected to the faith of one side or another. But any serious study of any of the faith traditions involved in any of these conflagrations any you'll find that the moderate position in all of them hold that bombing the unbelievers is a no-no.

Regarding recruiting and indoctrination...indoctrination is the exact opposite of understanding. THAT'S why it works as a recruiting tool, because it is indoctrination. "Do not think, do not question, obey. Act on orders. Do as you're told." You're right to point out that this is an important aspect of the problem, one that is critical to solving this problem.

Let me ask you, when those that are already indoctrinated, those that are indoctrinating the new recruits, what are these guys saying to the recruits? "America is bad, so bad you must be willing to die to help turn our situation around", or words to that effect. Now think, on someone not yet indoctrinated, someone who's avenues of critical thinking remain open, what would be a natural response to this dramatic statement. I mean, I would need some pretty good evidence to back up the claim that I have to be willing to die (something I don't want to do, something no one wants to do). Evidence, support, reasons. What might these trainers point to for support. What would convince a young man (or woman) to do this?

In my world, when I mess up once, I have to do, like, twenty good things before the memory of my goof-up fades. That ratio is flexible, if it's a bad boo-boo, then I might have to do many more postive things to balance out the perception of my net goodness. I believe this applies it your recruitment question as well.

Unfortunately, there are many many many things that are negative, some true, some not, some in between (spun), that we, America / the West / etc, that we're tarred with. The prospect of outweighing that mountain of negativity with twenty or a thousand or a zillion mountains of good is daunting. But doable. And it only happens one act at a time. I am trying to do my share. Jag put it well in this exchange:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

--snip--You can't change minds until you've made your own people safe from the bombs.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by jaguar

You can't make people safe from the bombs until you change minds.

What stopped the last group to terrorise london, the IRA? Certainly wasn't the security forces.

Originally Posted by warch

The moderate muslims need more than to just get to know us, they need to get to know and value a new view of themselves.

Huh? The moderate muslims need what? If anything, the moderate muslims need to get to know their own community better and apply their own standards more consistently.

So let's recap. Whackos==bad, they bomb people and are impossible to rehabilitate.

Killing unbelievers is anathema in all mainstream religions, and the large majority of moderate believers agree.

A laser sharp focus on the religious aspect of this issue misses the point and wastes energy better spent on the real issue of entrenched, bone deep disillusionment and a sense of helplessness and victimhood on the part of the perpertrators.

I am not an apologist for these terrorists or their actions. I want it to stop. I believe the best way to reach that goal is through a greater understanding of each other. Don't you get it? You reap what you sow. I'm trying to sow peace here. I am sowing understanding. listening, compassion, brotherhood, in the hope that I will listened by my brothers. I hope that listening leads to understanding and compassion. I hope that leads to peace.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by BigV

Let me ask you, when those that are already indoctrinated, those that are indoctrinating the new recruits, what are these guys saying to the recruits?

Exactly. That's how terrorist organizations survive. They gain strength by being attacked, because the increasingly forceful and powerful attempts to quell them can be used as recruiting propaganda. Even if they all are killed, that will be the impetus for a new organization to form. The only way to kill a terrorist organization is to make it harder for the recruiters to convince people on the edge to join the fight.

[Undertoad]

Wait wait wait, I found this post from BigV on August 3, 1952. It was on the backups:

If only we study the Klan, and let them air their greivances, perhaps they will not be been so violent and outraged. We must understand that there are some valid reasons why they hate the negro. Perhaps if we are open to them we can help them understand the differences of the negro. Anyway, the most important answer to their lynchings is to completely understand their different culture. At least, if we do, we will stop shooting at them in return when they show up on our lawns.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Wait wait wait, I found this post from BigV on August 3, 1952. It was on the backups:

Damn, August 3, 1952? Out here in the West us kids were still playing with tin cans attached with string. You folks back there in Philly were pretty damn advanced for the Eisenhower era. I couldn't even hold a crayon yet. Just how old did you say you were again, BigV?

[warch]

It is not the moderates on either side who have gotten us into this, but the fundamentalists on BOTH sides who are creating the havoc.

Crusades and historic tallys aside, Fundamentalist Islamic militants seem (at least to me) to be creating more havoc right now. Trying to understand the enemy is one thing, excusing is another. I'm not up for that.