Immigration

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

They cannot sell their sugar because our politicians created that problem. Bullshit is not answering the question: why did virtually the entire world walk out three days early in Cancun blaming the US for unfair trading? Why did they complain that we – using corporate welfare - make many agricultural jobs virtually impossible in Central and South American and Africa?

Who the fuck cares? If you're so concerned about fair trade then be concerned about China, Japan, et al. Why is it us that has to be fair and not the others? Do you think sending jobs to Mexico because they are free to pollute with abandon, and treat employees like shit,
fair trade?

Again, they need to take control of their own nation... the solution to their problem and ours.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Who the fuck cares? If you're so concerned about fair trade then be concerned about China, Japan, et al. Why is it us that has to be fair and not the others?

Maybe because the nations who are accused by virtually then entire world of unfair trading also have immigration problems? You don't see the world complaining so much about Japan or China.

Are you assuming that China and Japan are unfair traders? Fine. Why are those nations not subverting the Doha round of GATT?

60 Minutes last night had but another example of the myopia when we complain about the illegals. Federal agents were invited into Nebraska to sweep illegals from meat processing plants. Federal sweep was so successful that the region suffered a massive economic downturn. The Feds were strongly invited to leave so that the illegals would come back.

Of course, that is but another job just as easily performed outside the US. Just another job that we need illegal immigrants for - or a job that needs the US to eliminate another reason for the problem - immigrant quotas. Nebraska simply learned illegal immigrants are not the problem so many hype them to be. The real problem is in the American laws - that create an illegal immigrant problem.

The latest damning example being ethanol. We suddenly want lots of ethanol. And who pioneered the technology? Who has plenty of ethanol to sell? Brazil. So what do we do? Pass laws that put a 54% tariff on Brazil ethanol. It this action based in intelligence - or just the rich manipulating laws for their own purpose - and creating more need for illegal immigrants.

Bruce – as soon as I hear reasons from political hypsters being used, then t I doubt. By doubting absolute nonsense (such as terrorists massing at that border), then discovered is this major reason for an illegal immigration problem. US – with or without periods in that word.

This is where an intelligent Brazil says "Fuck you" and deals with other nations. It ain't hard.
So tired of people blaming the Gap for the clothes they are wearing... don't like em', don't shop there.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

This is where an intelligent Brazil says "Fuck you" and deals with other nations. It ain't hard.
So tired of people blaming the Gap for the clothes they are wearing... don't like em', don't shop there.

Brazil was one of so many countries loudly saying "FU" to US and France. The problem is that we are dumping agricultural products on the world thereby destroying jobs in those countries. We are so ignorant of what our 'bought and paid for' politician do that we don't even know about the 54% tariff on methanol.

I would guess that virtually every lurker here never heard of that 54% tariff - but heard repeatedly how illegal immigrants would become mass murdering terrorists. Somehow the reality is little known and the fears are widely publicized.

No wonder America would put up useless walls -cure a symptom - rather than address the problem. Too many want solutions without first learning what the problem really is. How many lurkers knew about Cancun long before reading about it here? Again demonstrates 'casting blame before learning of reality'.

Our skewed import/export practices are a problem... but having a secure border has nothing to do with it and I see no problem with it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Our skewed import/export practices are a problem... but having a secure border has nothing to do with it and I see no problem with it.

Our borders are as secure as they ever were. Any insecurity is Rush Limbaugh spin.

If you think for one minute that ignoring reasons for this problem will make our borders any safer, then you also believed the McNamara line defended S Vietnam. As Federal agent friends said, even the war on drugs was a myth. No matter how many agents, soldiers, Coast Guard cutters, and even nuclear subs; there was no significant reduction drug trafficking. Why? We used a big gun and big wall strategy to solve symptoms rather than address the problem.

What makes borders secure? Address the reason for problems; not solve a problem foolishly with big guns and big walls.

We don't have a border security problem - anymore than we did 30 years ago. What we have is denial that is only making illegal immigration necessary. The minute we start hyping fear of unsecured borders, then I know someone is being led by the nose (sound byte spin) rather than first asking some embarrassing simple questions. Spin doctors are hyping the 'unsecured border' hype so that you will not think logically.

For that matter, prove we have a border security problem. Not administration emotion. Show me with facts and numbers how our border security is so dangerous. How many buildings have been bombed? Where are all the rapes?

Our borders today are as unsecured as they were every decade previously. Why is that suddenly a problem? Do we cure symptoms - with simple minded solutions such as big walls and big guns? Or do we instead use intelligence to address the real problem?

BTW, what is the only way to have secure borders? Good, reliable, close friends on that border. I don’t see those who worry about ‘unsecure borders’ even for one minute talking about THE best source of secure borders. They hype big walls and big guns; a ‘big dic’ mentality that absolutely ignores the most significant reason for secure borders.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Maybe because the nations who are accused by virtually then[sic] entire world of unfair trading also have immigration problems?

Exactly one word too many: these are nations that have immigration, full stop. Now think why they do, and weep for the cause of Blame America First that you so madly, sickly, daily espouse, you idiot.

NoBoxes, welcome to the club of "I've taken tw's measure, and he sucks bong water and eats his dandruff," whose membership grows every time tw tries to pay attention to about anything. He can't copyedit and he's quite mad, though he can simulate a well-founded mentality on just enough occasions for people to take him seriously, for a moment or two. He has one redeeming social value -- he shows in detail how sick and wrong the Blame America First point of view is. In disagreeing with loonies like tw, we strengthen our patriotism and win the GWOT, not least to piss these fools off so bad they have to jump off bridges.

Tw, dear patriotism catalyzer, how do you type so much with one forefinger up your nose?

On a general note, what Mexico needs is an economy that resembles that of the United States, rather than a replication of feudal Spain. Make a good living and everything else pretty much falls into place, or at least you've got a menu of options.

Originally Posted by tw

Our borders are as secure as they ever were. Any insecurity is Rush Limbaugh spin.

If you think for one minute that ignoring reasons for this problem will make our borders any safer, then you also believed the McNamara line defended S Vietnam. As Federal agent friends said, even the war on drugs was a myth. No matter how many agents, soldiers, Coast Guard cutters, and even nuclear subs; there was no significant reduction drug trafficking. Why? We used a big gun and big wall strategy to solve symptoms rather than address the problem.

What makes borders secure? Address the reason for problems; not solve a problem foolishly with big guns and big walls.

We don't have a border security problem - anymore than we did 30 years ago. What we have is denial that is only making illegal immigration necessary. The minute we start hyping fear of unsecured borders, then I know someone is being led by the nose (sound byte spin) rather than first asking some embarrassing simple questions. Spin doctors are hyping the 'unsecured border' hype so that you will not think logically.

For that matter, prove we have a border security problem. Not administration emotion. Show me with facts and numbers how our border security is so dangerous. How many buildings have been bombed? Where are all the rapes?

Our borders today are as unsecured as they were every decade previously. Why is that suddenly a problem? Do we cure symptoms - with simple minded solutions such as big walls and big guns? Or do we instead use intelligence to address the real problem?

BTW, what is the only way to have secure borders? Good, reliable, close friends on that border. I don’t see those who worry about ‘unsecure borders’ even for one minute talking about THE best source of secure borders. They hype big walls and big guns; a ‘big dic’ mentality that absolutely ignores the most significant reason for secure borders.

We have always had lax border/immigration security, it is just time to fix it. Thanks for bringing that up and making the point as well.
Have too many illegal immigrants or illegals we don't want, hell illegals at all? We have a border problem. It ain't hard, and security is the first thing we need to worry about... relations are something we only have control over 1/2 of.

[xoxoxoBruce]

For that matter, prove we have a border security problem. Not administration emotion. Show me with facts and numbers how our border security is so dangerous. How many buildings have been bombed? Where are all the rapes?

No, no, no. You want proof? 11 M I L L I O N illegal aliens...at least. Nobody here is saying we are in danger of bombing or raping or they are dangerous..... except you.

Once more with feeling, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE...period.

Is that clear enough? The reasons they are here are myriad and complex as you have stated, I think properly, ad infinitum. One of them being the Beef producers that are making a bundle off of them.

BUT, the fact remains, they are not supposed to be here.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by tw

The problem is that we are dumping agricultural products on the world thereby destroying jobs in those countries.

Where in the world did you come up with THAT??? I live in the San Joaquin Valley, one of the most prolific food-producing areas in the world, and all we ever hear is how impossible it is for us to export foodstuffs to ANY country. Hell, California produces so many tons of garlic that they even have a festival in Gilroy, so we IMPORT garlic from China, that is how screwed up our balance of trade is in favor of the OTHER guys. The only meaningful food exports from this country are wheat and corn, which it seems that Russia and the former Communist Block countries can't get enough of, but otherwise OUR farmers compete against cheaper imports from everywhere else. WE have to obey sanitation and environmental and employer laws while the competition grows their stuff in sewage, does not get inspected, and uses slave labor. TW, you are from CA also, how in the world could you make a statement like that one???

[wolf]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Our skewed import/export practices are a problem... but having a secure border has nothing to do with it and I see no problem with it.

I seem to recall that we import a lot more than we export ... given this, folks should be staying in their home countries in droves to make more money off of us.

Originally Posted by Tonchi

Where in the world did you come up with THAT??? I live in the San Joaquin Valley, one of the most prolific food-producing areas in the world, and all we ever hear is how impossible it is for us to export foodstuffs to ANY country. Hell, California produces so many tons of garlic that they even have a festival in Gilroy, so we IMPORT garlic from China, that is how screwed up our balance of trade is in favor of the OTHER guys. The only meaningful food exports from this country are wheat and corn, which it seems that Russia and the former Communist Block countries can't get enough of, but otherwise OUR farmers compete against cheaper imports from everywhere else. WE have to obey sanitation and environmental and employer laws while the competition grows their stuff in sewage, does not get inspected, and uses slave labor. TW, you are from CA also, how in the world could you make a statement like that one???

Exactly, you have to look very hard now to find pure FL OJ and try to find US electronics... why? Because foreign markets have done here what TW says we are doing elsewhere, a myth. Cheap foreign goods hurt the US, not the other way around.
Find a factory producing something in the US other than on a nominal level... try it.
Yeah, they just eat-up US made cars, cheese, electronics, and every thing else other than music, jeans (oh... that's right, we don't make those any more) and movies...sure... sell us on that typing on your PC made where, on a chair made where, furniture made where, in clothes made where, listening to music packaged where, being lit by lights made where...? It's a FLOOOD of US goods!!!

What does this have to do with illegals in this nation?
Not a damn thing.
They are ILLEGAL... so, they should get a visa or get out. It is not complicated.
All of this is the same crap as "his momma spanked him so it ain't his fault he robbed the Circle K and killed that poor lady"...
It's a "look over here" tactic and is just silly.

[b]Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla
NoBoxes, welcome to the club of "I've taken tw's measure, and he sucks bong water and eats his dandruff,"

Originally Posted by tw
Noboxes - learn to post logically or we will have to discuss the penis hanging below your mother.

*Whether I praise, agree with, disagree with; or, criticize someone who posts here, I prefer to do it in an educated language.*

People with my formal training and experience in antiterrorism and counterterrorism are not likely to draw all the conclusions that tw has.

Those, like me, who have held a security clearance and accessed restricted information, refrain from drawing conclusions on controversial subjects to the degree of certainty that tw does when all they are working from is open sources.

People with my background realize that there are real needs and perceived needs and that more conflicts today result from disputes over perceived needs (ideologies - political, economic, social ... etc.) than from disputes over real needs (e.g. water, food, shelter ... etc.).

It is my opinion that tw's efforts to dispel the perceived needs that cause our actions to hinder our progress is a worthy endeavor. It is also my opinion that just enough of tw's conclusions are so seriously flawed as to make tw ineffective in that role. tw now only serves as entertainment for me; BUT HEY, THAT'S WHAT I CAME TO THE CELLAR FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE! I certainly didn't come here to solve the problems of the world.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I certainly didn't come here to solve the problems of the world.

What? Why you bastard, you killed Kenny, didn't you?