Negotiating Salary/Benefits

[Flint]

So, I think I found my dream job. This week I'm meeting with the HR guy, I assume for them to extend me an offer.

I've already heard (through the grapevine) that they will try to lowball me, and I assumed that they might, as this is a new and very small facility (1/10th the capacity of my current one).

On the other hand, they do need the talent, I've already met the CIO (he loved me), and they're going to have to entice me to drive (and be on call) from an hour away.

I've never had to negotiate with an HR guy before.

*** What kind of Jedi mind tricks could he pull?

*** What tactics/ammunition should I have prepared?

*** What else do I need to know? What is your experience with this?

I call upon thee, oh Dwellars of great and mighty experience, plz help!

[Pico and ME]

An hour away???

[Flint]

Yes. One hour. There just aren't that many of my specific job available in a given geographical region.

And I am willing to make the drive--if it means advancing my skills, career path, and providing for my family.

If I get the job, I intend to eventually move out there.

[Pico and ME]

Whew...good luck then.

I would hate to live so far away from my job, and now especially because of gas prices, but mostly because it just blows. Moving in closer would be a good idea.

[glatt]

Is the lowball offer something you can live with? Or is it a real painful choice? (Obviously you don't knwo yet.)

I'm no expert in this, but I think the only real tool you have in any negotiation like this is the willingness to walk away. If they see you walking away and know it's only about money and that you otherwise would love to work there, then they may toss you a bone.

Oh wait, there's another tool. Do you have any pictures of this HR guy getting serviced by a hooker?

[Flint]

A little birdy told me I would have to counter-offer at least once.

The thing is, I'm not good at haggling. So, is there an official framework for negotiating these things--an ettiquette? Any advice would be helpful to me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You've probably done this already, but..
Find out what the going rate is for that position in the area.

Decide what you want, not what you think you deserve, because you'll underrate yourself. You have to assume while you're, "advancing my skills, career path, and providing for my family", you'll also be taking care of their needs. It's not all one way.

Figure out what you have to get, just to break even. That's the minimum you can accept in return for the career move.

Set the minimum you'll accept in advance, but if they offer more, see if they'll go higher. And any promised increases should be in writing.

Good luck.

[Flint]

Thanks, Bruce. That is good "horse-sense," very practical.

What I am more apprehensive about is the actual meeting with the guy; I have some social anxiety...if he makes me nervous my mind might wander. I'm hoping I can get an idea of what to expect during an HR negotiation; or what I can stay focused on, to make it appear that I know what I'm doing. I don't like not knowing what the basic format of this encouter will be.

[Pico and ME]

Try this site for some tips.

[dar512]

It's all in how you say it. "I really like what I've seen so far and I'd love to work for XYZ, but I just can't support my family on $XXX. I'd consider $YYY a reasonable figure."

It doesn't have to be those words, but something that indicates that you are interested in the job, but that the salary doesn't work for you.

[glatt]

Whatever you do, when you are in the meeting and your mind starts to wander, don't think of that Brady Bunch episode where Marsha was nervous about taking a driving exam, so she pictured her driving tester in his underwear, and she passed the test! Cause that will make you smile, and then the HR guy will think you like his low ball offer.

[BigV]

Flint:

1 -- GOOD LUCK!!

2 -- You are about to enter the phase of your relationship with this (potential) employer where you will have the greatest amount of leverage you will ever have with them. It is a short phase, and it will be all downhill from here. Right now, assuming you are given an offer, you have something they want and don't yet have. They want you and they're willing to pay a price to satisfy that want. What that price is is not yet defined, but since they obviously want to conserve their money, lower is better.

Keep in mind that there are many ways other than net pay that can help close the gap between what you require and what they are willing to pay. The smaller the organization, the more flexibility you can work with. Starting with more paid time off, or starting at a middle point of the time off earning schedule is one. Other benefits like employer paid health care costs, or an accelerated vesting schedule for your 401k, travel expenses (partially) reimbursed. A signing bonus. Be creative. Be greedy (for now).

Think about what you want. Oh! Would they be willing to pay for your formal training? And give you paid time off for the duration? Getting that cert was important to you in a different thread, right? Show them your self improvement drive.

3 -- I agree with xoB's remarks. Especially about getting things in writing. A good way to finesse this is to listen politely to their offer. When you get it in writing, or ask for it in writing if it's not delivered that way to begin with, then say something like "This looks really appealing. I'd like some time to talk it over with my wife, if you don't mind. Could I give you my reply tomorrow/Monday/whatever?" They'll say ok. And if they don't do you want to work with someone who's inflexible on such a reasonable request right off the bat? This is important. Do this even if the offer is way higher than your top dream number. It will let you consider the numbers and the offer more objectively. It will increase your ... what ... cred? respect due? grrr.. Don't be "easy". I think you know what I mean. This works once. Now is the time when it works, not later. Not after you've said yes. Only before. And it diminishes in effectiveness each subsequent time you use it. *note*

3 -- Do your homework. Now. Do the same research they've done to see what the going rate for talent like yours is in their (remote?) neighborhood. Salary.com is a good place to look. Use their job title. Then use a few other similar job titles. Round up. Print out the three most favorable close matches and bring them to the second meeting.

4 -- Yeah, the second meeting. Remember, you didn't wet your pants with joy when they said they'd hire you and now you're back with a counter offer. This offer will also be in writing, it will be the research you did online for similar talent. They'll recognize the numbers, since they already did the same thing you just did. You're calling them. Your numbers will be fair. How can they say no? Well, they might plead poverty "Oh we're so young and small and we can't pay...." etc etc. Then you have a decision to make. That's when you need to bring in the other non cash enticements. Expect them to respond to your offer like you did to theirs--let me think about it and we'll call you back. **DON'T FREAK OUT HERE**. I know you want the job. Hang on. Wait for their reply to your counter offer. Then you'll know what to do.

5 -- Here is a link to some examples of the kind of language I've used when this subject has come up. I try to invoke their self interest insofar as they want a quality product and should expect to pay *fair market value*.

As for HR jedi mind trixors.... Remember that the HR guy works for the company, and just like other managers of other company assets and resources (materials, facilities, inventory, HUMANS), his first loyalties belong to the company, not you, you puny human. Also, get stuff in writing. Don't be pushed into signing.

It's an exciting scary uncertain time, negotiating for a new job. But it is totally worth it.

[Flint]

Thanks, BigV
...my stomach is all messed up.

I already know a couple of things...

That Salary.com etc. will tell them an average base-salary number that exceeds my current base+on-call pay. (And I have many, many other sources that I have laid out in spreadsheets that I've been waving in the face of my current mgmt.)

That I come on a personal recommendation as exactly what the CIO is looking for; and he was very impressed with me.

So I'm going into this with the approach that, with the hour-long drive expense, I'd be taking a pay CUT unless they can offer me a certain dollar amount to leave my current, perfectly respectable position at a major, industry-leading facility/chain.

Benefits: They do have a 401k--it isn't matched but "profit sharing" is put into it. No tuition reimbursement (yet), but the CIO states that the FIRST thing they would do is send me for various training (big plus for me). The new training/experience in itself translates into many more $$$s over my career path.

I get excellent vacation time now (not that I can ever actually use it) so I intend to push for that, or some monetary compensation or bonus to offset that.

[BigV]

What does your current base+on-call pay have to do with anything? Have you already provided this information to them? I hope not, but if so, you've given away a big piece of your leverage. If not, don't. It's not germane to the conversation.

You and them are talking about the (potential) job at their company, let's talk about the pay for that job, shall we? It is not the case that they hold all the cards, but they do hold a lot of them.

Is that value you've been waving under the noses of current management one with which you'd be happy? Knowing what *you* want/need is a big plus. If you already have the number/package, great! That's your counter offer. In writing, naturally.

Just fyi, I used to have a terribly long commute. For me it wasn't worth it. Think hard about 2/16ths of your waking time spent burning $$ out your tailpipe... that needs to be "worth it". It has a real cost, both in fuel and hassle and in time away from your young family. Don't lowball that figure, Flint. You'll regret it.

[classicman]

Very good points V. Personally my new maximum commute is now 30 minutes. With traffic or other unforeseen issues it can quickly become an hour. Since you have younger ones that can mean the difference between making or missing ball games, recitals...
You are good - very good don't undersell yourself.

Whatever happens try to make them offer you a number first. Then no matter how high or low it is, know that you cann add at least 10% to it. Also, other benefits & perks can add up to a lot as far as compensation goes. Don't know much about your situation, but they are all bargaining chips - you can sacrifice (wink wink) for something else. Its just like the game of chicken - whoever blinks first loses.