Lest we forget tomorrow...

jdbutler · 09-10-2004, 09:43 AM

http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.html

Please read the info at the end of the slide show

If you cant open the above page, try this:
http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.htm
Sorry!

vsp · 09-10-2004, 12:44 PM

I'm going to be a good boy and not say much of anything about this.

Troubleshooter · 09-10-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsp

I'm going to be a good boy and not say much of anything about this.

I think that if we concentrate on the guys who died, doing their job, to save others, and forget the why and how of it happening we'll do ok.

jaguar · 09-10-2004, 12:54 PM

..................oh dear.
I think I've seen this before. That's right, it was called the two minutes of hate.
On the upside, clearly the flash development environment is accessible to any idiot these days, last I played with it messy for app development.

lookout123 · 09-10-2004, 01:23 PM

why should we forget the why and how?

I think you are right that tomorrow should be a day to remember those that were lost, but I think it is important that we not forget why and how this happened. These people didn't die because of an engine malfunction on a couple of planes. They didn't die because they were unable to get out of a burning building. They died because a group of people hated us enough to carefully plan and carry out an attack designed to murder innocent people. The terrorists succeeded in their quest to bring death and destruction to American soil.

That should never be forgotten.

Troubleshooter · 09-10-2004, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

why should we forget the why and how?

Because we already have enough political/social debates going on.

A simple topic where one aspect of it can, most likely, be agreed on by just about everybody here would be quite refreshing.

lookout123 · 09-10-2004, 01:41 PM

ok, so you were saying that we should skip the discussion about the why's and how's alone for now? my mistake i thought you were saying we should forget why and how these people died.

good sentiment TS.

Cyber Wolf · 09-10-2004, 03:15 PM

First reaction: Booooooooooring.
Second reaction: Well..maybe there's...nah, still boring.
I'll write it off as someone's personal tribute to 9/11, pretty well done, pretty clean images (as best they could gather, I'm sure).

This didn't pull any more of an emotional response mainly because all the images they used I have seen probably hundreds of times before and am numb to now. The quotes used were said in a time when our country was very small compared to now, not nearly as globally powerful or wealthy as we are now and so are just a bit out of context. Well meaning and generally relevant, but out of context. And I was put off a bit by the assumption that the viewer HAS forgotten what happened, how it happened and why. Seeing how I hadn't forgotten and I know damn well what time of year it is, I feel the piece wasn't really speaking to me.

Nice flash, well done. At least they haven't forgotten. Now to find something that I can attach an emotion to...ahhh, Wyrd Sisters.

vsp · 09-10-2004, 03:17 PM

I don't believe that there's a single American who has forgotten what happened on 9/11, how it happened, how thousands of people died in horrific ways, or that Middle Eastern terrorists were responsible. How could they, both from the magnitude of the tragedy itself and from the magnitude of the media's subsequent coverage of it?

I don't think that I need others to prod me and poke me and direct me towards instant replays every year "in case I had forgotten." It's a bit insulting to suggest that I have "forgotten." Or is it that I've "forgotten" how others believe I'm supposed to feel about 9/11, or about subsequent actions taken using 9/11 as a pretext?

The Information page does contain some truth. Yes, freedom does not come easily or without sacrifice. Many have died and suffered to maintain the American way of life over America's history. Many died on 9/11 as inadvertant victims of anti-American hatred. Many others died while doing their jobs as rescue workers and attempting to save lives. Is there anyone who will question the above?

But the Information page is also slanted in a particular direction. It's not "Have you forgotten?" It's "Have you forgotten that this is why we need to go to war and remain at war?" And therein lies the debate, as many feel that the wrong people and the wrong country are being targetted, with lives (both Iraqi and American) lost on a daily basis. Many feel that the focus has shifted away from the true culprits, that the current war in Iraq is being counterproductive towards its stated ends, and that those in power were not honest about why America went to war against Iraq.

I don't know anyone who disputes the need to find those responsible for 9/11 and hold them accountable for their crimes, and to take steps to prevent future crimes of that nature. I know many who question whether the Bush administration is going about that in the right way, whether Saddam and Iraq had anything to do with al-Qaeda or 9/11, whether the invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam were justifiable (much less justified by 9/11 specifically), and whether it's time for new leaders and a new approach as to how America responds to terrorism and hatred.

9/11 is a permanent part of America's history. There will be no shortage of remembrances, memorials and tributes to 9/11, nor would I suggest that they would be out of place. But how we _respond_ to 9/11, what lessons we learn from it and how we apply those lessons as individuals and as a nation, is even more important than that, and if the wrong responses are made, there needs to be accountability.

At the Republican convention, speakers mentioned 9/11 frequently, but mentioned Saddam's name a hell of a lot more than Osama's.

Has Dubya forgotten?

vsp · 09-10-2004, 04:21 PM

And just to show that I view taking _anything_ too seriously as a waste of energy, here's a <a href="http://midnightdown.com/images/tribute.wmv">very, very different</a> 9/11 tribute.

WARNING WARNING DANGER WILL ROBINSON: If you have strong emotional ties to 9/11 and its aftermath, or feel that you are likely to be offended by dark humor, do not click the link above. Seriously. If you like Lee Greenwood and Enya songs with news footage spliced into them, this is not for you. I didn't make it; I'm merely sleazy enough to pass it on to others. It's not my bandwidth, so be nice and don't hammer their server.

glatt · 09-10-2004, 04:31 PM

Of course, with that warning, I had to click on the link.

You are going to burn in Hell.

ladysycamore · 09-10-2004, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsp

And just to show that I view taking _anything_ too seriously as a waste of energy, here's a <a href="http://midnightdown.com/images/tribute.wmv">very, very different</a> 9/11 tribute.

WARNING WARNING DANGER WILL ROBINSON: If you have strong emotional ties to 9/11 and its aftermath, or feel that you are likely to be offended by dark humor, do not click the link above. Seriously. If you like Lee Greenwood and Enya songs with news footage spliced into them, this is not for you. I didn't make it; I'm merely sleazy enough to pass it on to others. It's not my bandwidth, so be nice and don't hammer their server.

Oh...my..God. I know I'm going to burn in hell just b/c of my reaction. I'll plead the fifth on that one.

And btw, great post you wrote before posting this one with the link. Amen to everything you said.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-12-2004, 12:13 AM

Like VSP, I clicked on the little "info" at jdbutler's link. It's certainly a strong message. Almost made me want to drop my crutches and walk,...no,...run.

Happy Monkey · 09-12-2004, 09:09 AM

Part of the strength of the US has been our ability to forgive and forget. We don't get caught up in centuries-long grudges, and some of our best allies are nations we defeated in wars (England, Germany, Japan, Mexico), and one we failed to defeat (Canada). We can hope the same pattern is followed for Iraq, but it's not looking likely. And it looks almost impossible for Afghanistan at this point.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-12-2004, 02:52 PM

Quote:

some of our best allies are nations we defeated in wars

Quote:

We can hope the same pattern is followed for Iraq, but it's not looking likely.

See the connection?

09-10-2004, 09:43 AM	#1
jdbutler If ya cant take a joke, Effya! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 288	Lest we forget tomorrow... http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.html Please read the info at the end of the slide show If you cant open the above page, try this: http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.htm Sorry! __________________ Phineas J. Twunt Last edited by jdbutler; 09-10-2004 at 10:39 AM. Reason: I think I screwed up this link.

09-10-2004, 12:54 PM	#4
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	..................oh dear. I think I've seen this before. That's right, it was called the two minutes of hate. On the upside, clearly the flash development environment is accessible to any idiot these days, last I played with it messy for app development. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

09-10-2004, 01:23 PM	#5
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	why should we forget the why and how? I think you are right that tomorrow should be a day to remember those that were lost, but I think it is important that we not forget why and how this happened. These people didn't die because of an engine malfunction on a couple of planes. They didn't die because they were unable to get out of a burning building. They died because a group of people hated us enough to carefully plan and carry out an attack designed to murder innocent people. The terrorists succeeded in their quest to bring death and destruction to American soil. That should never be forgotten. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

09-10-2004, 01:41 PM	#7
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	ok, so you were saying that we should skip the discussion about the why's and how's alone for now? my mistake i thought you were saying we should forget why and how these people died. good sentiment TS. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

09-10-2004, 03:15 PM	#8
Cyber Wolf As stable as a ring of PU-239 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: On a huge rock covered in water, highly advanced moss and 7 billion parasites Posts: 1,264	First reaction: Booooooooooring. Second reaction: Well..maybe there's...nah, still boring. I'll write it off as someone's personal tribute to 9/11, pretty well done, pretty clean images (as best they could gather, I'm sure). This didn't pull any more of an emotional response mainly because all the images they used I have seen probably hundreds of times before and am numb to now. The quotes used were said in a time when our country was very small compared to now, not nearly as globally powerful or wealthy as we are now and so are just a bit out of context. Well meaning and generally relevant, but out of context. And I was put off a bit by the assumption that the viewer HAS forgotten what happened, how it happened and why. Seeing how I hadn't forgotten and I know damn well what time of year it is, I feel the piece wasn't really speaking to me. Nice flash, well done. At least they haven't forgotten. Now to find something that I can attach an emotion to...ahhh, Wyrd Sisters. __________________ "I don't see what's so triffic about creating people as people and then getting' upset 'cos they act like people." ~Adam Young, Good Omens "I don't see why it matters what is written. Not when it's about people. It can always be crossed out." ~Adam Young, Good Omens

09-10-2004, 12:44 PM	#2
vsp Syndrome of a Down Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: West Chester Posts: 1,367	I'm going to be a good boy and not say much of anything about this.

09-10-2004, 03:17 PM	#9
vsp Syndrome of a Down Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: West Chester Posts: 1,367	I don't believe that there's a single American who has forgotten what happened on 9/11, how it happened, how thousands of people died in horrific ways, or that Middle Eastern terrorists were responsible. How could they, both from the magnitude of the tragedy itself and from the magnitude of the media's subsequent coverage of it? I don't think that I need others to prod me and poke me and direct me towards instant replays every year "in case I had forgotten." It's a bit insulting to suggest that I have "forgotten." Or is it that I've "forgotten" how others believe I'm supposed to feel about 9/11, or about subsequent actions taken using 9/11 as a pretext? The Information page does contain some truth. Yes, freedom does not come easily or without sacrifice. Many have died and suffered to maintain the American way of life over America's history. Many died on 9/11 as inadvertant victims of anti-American hatred. Many others died while doing their jobs as rescue workers and attempting to save lives. Is there anyone who will question the above? But the Information page is also slanted in a particular direction. It's not "Have you forgotten?" It's "Have you forgotten that this is why we need to go to war and remain at war?" And therein lies the debate, as many feel that the wrong people and the wrong country are being targetted, with lives (both Iraqi and American) lost on a daily basis. Many feel that the focus has shifted away from the true culprits, that the current war in Iraq is being counterproductive towards its stated ends, and that those in power were not honest about why America went to war against Iraq. I don't know anyone who disputes the need to find those responsible for 9/11 and hold them accountable for their crimes, and to take steps to prevent future crimes of that nature. I know many who question whether the Bush administration is going about that in the right way, whether Saddam and Iraq had anything to do with al-Qaeda or 9/11, whether the invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam were justifiable (much less justified by 9/11 specifically), and whether it's time for new leaders and a new approach as to how America responds to terrorism and hatred. 9/11 is a permanent part of America's history. There will be no shortage of remembrances, memorials and tributes to 9/11, nor would I suggest that they would be out of place. But how we _respond_ to 9/11, what lessons we learn from it and how we apply those lessons as individuals and as a nation, is even more important than that, and if the wrong responses are made, there needs to be accountability. At the Republican convention, speakers mentioned 9/11 frequently, but mentioned Saddam's name a hell of a lot more than Osama's. Has Dubya forgotten? Last edited by vsp; 09-10-2004 at 03:22 PM.

09-10-2004, 04:21 PM	#10
vsp Syndrome of a Down Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: West Chester Posts: 1,367	And just to show that I view taking _anything_ too seriously as a waste of energy, here's a <a href="http://midnightdown.com/images/tribute.wmv">very, very different</a> 9/11 tribute. WARNING WARNING DANGER WILL ROBINSON: If you have strong emotional ties to 9/11 and its aftermath, or feel that you are likely to be offended by dark humor, do not click the link above. Seriously. If you like Lee Greenwood and Enya songs with news footage spliced into them, this is not for you. I didn't make it; I'm merely sleazy enough to pass it on to others. It's not my bandwidth, so be nice and don't hammer their server. Last edited by vsp; 09-10-2004 at 04:25 PM.

09-10-2004, 04:31 PM	#11
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Of course, with that warning, I had to click on the link. You are going to burn in Hell.

09-12-2004, 12:13 AM	#13
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Like VSP, I clicked on the little "info" at jdbutler's link. It's certainly a strong message. Almost made me want to drop my crutches and walk,...no,...run. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-12-2004, 09:09 AM	#14
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Part of the strength of the US has been our ability to forgive and forget. We don't get caught up in centuries-long grudges, and some of our best allies are nations we defeated in wars (England, Germany, Japan, Mexico), and one we failed to defeat (Canada). We can hope the same pattern is followed for Iraq, but it's not looking likely. And it looks almost impossible for Afghanistan at this point. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

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