[Deuce]

Originally Posted by Deuce

That right there, that inability to argue constructively is one of our biggest problems. We're for sure arguing now, still, but it's through expen$ive proxie$. Better we should just learn to work out our differences better.

gah. who said it? somebbody said let them work it out. Man, that sounds appealing. I want to work it out, I just don't know how, when anything I say can be read as an attack on her. How do I do that?

We have so much to go on, and we're stuck arguing about he said she said. It's really discouraging. Even at this stage, we need to communicate. I want to communicate. To make myself understood, and to understand her. At this point, we're talking with legal papers, and even those are confusing. Can't we just, you know, talk? Understand each other?

How the hell do all you people do it?

How would you all suggest I communicate with her?

I'm open to suggestions. Please.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Honestly Deuce? I can't offer any advice on that. I think you stand more chance of understanding each other, after the divorce is complete and the dust has settled. ...

Can we have some input from people who've been through it?

Hmmph. I need help now on how to communicate with her now. After the divorce is final is too late, it is too far in the future. I want to know how to better handle the situation at hand now.

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

My ex and I are friends, but it wasn't always easy. I hope you can get to that point, deuce. You have to be so very patient. Hang in there!

Friends with ex.. more future past tense. I admit that that sounds good, that "someday" we can be friends but "today" there are lives being demolished. The plans for those future lives are being written "today". I need to communicate with her "today" so those plans can make the best possible lives for all, including and especially our YS.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Right now things are likely so fraught it may be difficult to interract 'normally'.

heh. I'm curious though. What is this "normally" thing you're talking about?

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

True, DanaC...sometimes you have to wait, move slowly...when you're in the middle of all this it is just too painful.

god, what an understatement.

Originally Posted by smurfalicious

If she hadn't filed a restraining order, I'd suggest counseling of some sort. It helps some people - not all people. Couples counseling helped me for awhile. Until I realized my husband just didn't have it in him to be honest - not with me, not himself, not the counselor, not anyone. Proof you both have to want it to work in order for it to work.

Wow. Sounds familiar. We've been to counseling. There may be more counseling ahead. Your remarks about your husband's inability to be honest--ouch. I have been accused of the same thing. Exactly the same thing. That's a major stumbling block between us. How do you, no, how does one determine honesty? Especially when it's just the three of you in the room? He said, she said, and the counselor flips a coin?

Honestly (no pun intended) I wish for nothing more than for us to understand each other. Review my posts. You will find a very consistent line there, my desire for us to make that connection. But we disagree on some things and we have not found a way around them. I believe she has come to exactly the same conclusion you have, she's given up waiting for me to be honest. See ya. She no longer wants to work it out.

But from these shoes, I am being honest.

I believe it is possible for me, or you, or her, to believe something, and be wrong. I believe I'm being honest. I could be wrong. She believes I'm a danger to her and to my son. She's wrong. She believes I'm being dishonest. She's wrong. How are such disconnects ever resolved?

In my experience, there are a number of ways. Some things are objectively measurable. So measure it. What is the answer and to how many decimal places? That's a good way to resolve the gap between belief and truth.

There are some areas where belief is not easily measured, though. She filed the restraining order and said she feared for her safety and for our son's safety. I think she believed it, and so that was true. But it didn't happen, there have been no triple ax murder suicides in the papers, you'd've seen it, no? So fear, true; unfounded, true. But it could happen tomorrow! Repeat the process. There's no end to this. I can never prove it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially when we're talking about what "could" happen.

Better we should change the discussion to what probably will happen. There the ground is firmer, because then you can fairly incorporate into your predictions the facts of what has gone before. Certainly there are limits to the usefulness of this process, but we all use it successfully every stinkin day. What mostly happens? xyz. What will probably happen? more x, more y, more z. Is there anyone out there that doesn't operate this way? Is there any functional adult in the audience who has to relearn the world each morning from experience, with no help from his memory? I didn't think so. And that dude from Memento doesn't count.

So far, so good. But we fail (recursively) to decide on what x is. On what y is. It's very very discouraging. Ideally, the strategy outlined above is applicable here too. Can you measure it? If so, do so. Compare the measurements to the reported

Which brings us back to do. There has to be some willingness to try to reach understanding with the other. I can not conceive of an acceptable substitute for that willingness, that desire to connect to the other. Absent that, all is lost.

Originally Posted by smurfalicious

Which brings me to me next point: she doesn't want it to work. A restraining order is a pretty clear indication that she either (1) fears you and is removing you from her life, or (2) she's playing some kind of sick game because she wants it all on her terms, and do you really want any of that crazy-bitch action?

As long as there is a restraining order, do not have contact with the woman, even if she attempts to lure you into it. The law is clear, and there will be no excuse for you to violate the order, even if she initiates contact. She may be putting on a nice act to get you to do what she wants (i.e. make the divorce easy for her, and not rack up any more legal bills fighting her for it.) Actions speak louder than words, and right now her actions are divorcing and restraining you.

*sigh*

Originally Posted by smurfalicious

Letting go may be an option to consider here. Sometimes we want what we just can't have. I didn't want to get divorced. But I didn't want to be miserable more than that. It's not the end of the world. And it's been my experience that, for the most part, time heals all wounds. Have faith that this is happening for a reason - that Life is taking you in another direction than the one you were previously heading in, and one day it will all be clear to you.

To me, this is the most true and most painful and most likely. Thanks, kinda.

Originally Posted by limey

Deuce, I can't comment on the US legal side of things, but I do agree with others that have posted here that it seems that your wife does not want the marriage to continue, and feels sufficiently strongly about it to set legal restrictions on your actions/contact with her and your child. As others have said this can only be for one of two reasons: either through actual fear of you, or through a wish to manipulate things to her own advantage. Only you can tell which of those is her motivation - think about it carefully. It's also worth repeating that if she is subjecting you to a restraining order which limits your contact with her, then it is hypocritical of her (at best) to be ringing you and urging you to contact her.
The best things I think you can do under the circumstances are to look out for yourself, get good legal advice, and never badmouth your wife to your child. Blake said it best - if you love something you must be able to let it go. Let your wife go.
I wish you strength, and the loving support of your friends and family at this most difficult of times.

See above.

Originally Posted by kgg

It's been a while since Deuce mentioned her calling. Perhaps she hasn't for a while. And, Deuce, have you called her? You say you have been talking and that not all the talks have been bad. There must be some progress towards the good if you can call it that. Is she initiating all of your conversations or are you a willing partner?

I have called her as much as I dare. Mostly my calls are ignored. When they're not ignored, we mostly get into a fight on the phone. I hate that. It's like we're speaking two different languages. Have you ever been in that situation? You hear them talking but you don't understand what they're saying, and they don't understand you? We're there. Except we don't have the mutual interest in trying to understand each other. She thinks all my actions and words are attacks on her. She thinks I'm dangerous or sneaky or mean or all three.

Originally Posted by kgg

I will still play the devil's advocate and give them both the benefit of the doubt. Not knowing either one, I will not condemn either. I hope things work our both both of you so that you may, hopefully, come out the other side as, perhaps, friends instead of enemies for your sons sake.

I love her. I can see that while I wish to remain her husband, she is unwilling to remain my wife. I will accept friend if that is the best I can hope for. But tragically, she doesn't consider me a friend either.

And the threat that I represent to her is magnified when our son is the topic of conversation. I don't know what to do.