Bush Commutes Sentences of Border Patrol Agents

dmg1969 · 01-19-2009, 12:43 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090119/...h/bush_pardons

WASHINGTON – In his final acts of clemency, President George W. Bush on Monday commuted the prison sentences of two former U.S. Border Patrol agents whose convictions for shooting a Mexican drug dealer ignited fierce debate about illegal immigration.

Bush's decision to commute the sentences of Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, who tried to cover up the shooting, was welcomed by both Republican and Democratic members of Congress. They had long argued that the agents were merely doing their jobs, defending the American border against criminals. They also maintained that the more than 10-year prison sentences the pair was given were too harsh.

Rancor over their convictions, sentencing and firings has simmered ever since the shooting occurred in 2005.

Ramos and Compean became a rallying point among conservatives and on talk shows where their supporters called them heroes. Nearly the entire bipartisan congressional delegation from Texas and other lawmakers from both sides of the political aisle pleaded with Bush to grant them clemency.

Bush didn't pardon the men for their crimes, but decided instead to commute their prison sentences because he believed they were excessive and that they had already suffered the loss of their jobs, freedom and reputations, a senior administration official said.

The action by the president, who believes the border agents received fair trials and that the verdicts were just, does not diminish the seriousness of their crimes, the official said.

Compean and Ramos, who have served about two years of their sentences, are expected to be released from prison within the next two months.

They were convicted of shooting admitted drug smuggler Osvaldo Aldrete Davila in the buttocks as he fled across the Rio Grande, away from an abandoned van load of marijuana. The border agents argued during their trials that they believed the smuggler was armed and that they shot him in self defense. The prosecutor in the case said there was no evidence linking the smuggler to the van of marijuana. The prosecutor also said the border agents didn't report the shooting and tampered with evidence by picking up several spent shell casings.

The agents were fired after their convictions on several charges, including assault with a dangerous weapon and with serious bodily injury, violation of civil rights and obstruction of justice. All their convictions, except obstruction of justice, were upheld on appeal.

With the new acts of clemency, Bush has granted a total of 189 pardons and 11 commutations.

That's fewer than half as many as Presidents Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan issued during their two-term tenures. Bush technically has until noon on Tuesday when President-elect Barack Obama is sworn into office to exercise his executive pardon authority, but presidential advisers said no more were forthcoming.

The president had made most of his pardon decisions on low-profile cases, but his batch in December created controversy.

Isaac Robert Toussie of Brooklyn, N.Y, convicted of making false statements to the Department of Housing and Urban Development and of mail fraud, was among 19 people Bush pardoned just before Christmas. But after learning in news reports that Toussie's father had donated tens of thousands of dollars to the Republican Party a few months ago, as well as other information, the president reversed his decision on Toussie's case.

The White House said the decision to revoke the pardon — a step unheard of in recent memory — was based on information about the extent and nature of Toussie's prior criminal offenses, and that neither the White House counsel's office nor the president had been aware of a political contribution by Toussie's father and wanted to avoid creating an appearance of impropriety.

In an earlier high-profile official act of forgiveness, Bush saved Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, from serving prison time in the case of the 2003 leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity. Libby was convicted of perjury and obstructing justice. Bush could still grant him a full pardon, although Libby has not applied for one.

Bush's batches of pardons, however, have never included any well-known convicts like junk bond dealer Michael Milken, who sought a pardon on securities fraud charges, or two politicians convicted of public corruption — former Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, R-Calif., and four-term Democratic Louisiana Gov. Edwin W. Edwards — who wanted Bush to shorten their prison terms.

Clinton issued a total of 457 in eight years in office. Bush's father, George H. W. Bush, issued 77 in four years. Reagan issued 406 in eight years, and President Carter issued 563 in four years. Since World War II, the largest number of pardons and commutations — 2,031 — came from President Truman, who served 82 days short of eight years.

TheMercenary · 01-19-2009, 03:51 PM

He should be commended. Those guys should never have gone to prison.

classicman · 01-19-2009, 03:58 PM

Good for the Border Agents. I remember that case. Interesting statistics there at the end.
Clinton issued a total of 457 in eight years
George H. W. Bush, issued 77 in four years
Reagan issued 406 in eight years
Carter issued 563 in four years
Truman issued 2,031 in eight years*
Bush has granted a total of 189 pardons.

Guess you actually have to prosecute to pardon. Thats all I can figure. Why is Bush's number so much lower?

Clodfobble · 01-19-2009, 06:12 PM

Bush Jr.'s rate is still higher than his father's was. It's just a question of how far-reaching one's empathy and second-guessing of the court system is. Plus, Bush Jr. is the "tough on crime" type. A record number of inmates were executed during his governorship of Texas as well.

TheMercenary · 01-19-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

A record number of inmates were executed during his governorship of Texas as well.

Saved him from comuting their sentences.

Radar · 01-20-2009, 01:17 AM

Those scumbags should still be in prison. It makes sense that Bush would commute the sentences of jackbooted fascist thugs from an illegal agency who shot a guy in the back who didn't have a weapon.

I only hope they suffered a lot in prison and got raped a bunch.

dmg1969 · 01-20-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Those scumbags should still be in prison. It makes sense that Bush would commute the sentences of jackbooted fascist thugs from an illegal agency who shot a guy in the back who didn't have a weapon.

I only hope they suffered a lot in prison and got raped a bunch.

Oh Please! Illegal agency? Jackbooted fascist thugs? I bet you're one of those who think we should just open our border and let anyone across! Perhaps we should have let the drug runner they shot have immediate citizenship? I don't applaud what they did to cover up the shooting, but I think we should have more border agents like them. Enough of this kid gloves approach to the border, drug smuggling and illegal immigrant problem.

Edit: I see you're in CA...hence your position of the subject.

Radar · 01-20-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969

Oh Please! Illegal agency? Jackbooted fascist thugs? I bet you're one of those who think we should just open our border and let anyone across! Perhaps we should have let the drug runner they shot have immediate citizenship? I don't applaud what they did to cover up the shooting, but I think we should have more border agents like them. Enough of this kid gloves approach to the border, drug smuggling and illegal immigrant problem.

Edit: I see you're in CA...hence your position of the subject.

Actually, I'm a patriot who holds the same positions as the founders of America...hence my position on the subject. The founders didn't grant the federal government any Constitutional powers over immigration and they did this for a reason. They welcomed all immigrants from all parts of the world with open arms.

So yes, I do think we should allow any number of immigrants, from any country to cross our borders to live and work here. I do not think we should grant immediate citizenship, but I do think all immigrants are born with the same rights as any American citizen has other than voting, and they should be given the same due process as any citizen born here.

The man they shot was leaving. They shot him in the back. Whether or not he had drugs is irrelevant. All drugs should be legal, and since the federal government has absolutely zero powers to regulate or legislate immigration, that part of government should be abolished.

lookout123 · 01-20-2009, 10:40 AM

rather than watch this go back and forth for the next four days with no change in opinions, dmg - please allow me to summarize what you will read if you continue this thread:

radar: we have natural rights that do not come from the government and the government has no right to step on those rights. if your neighbor was to shoot heroin into his scrotum while giving proper meth cooking directions to 13 illegal immigrants each holding a 50cal machine gun and laughing about the small thermonuclear device they've (paid for with money they saved by not paying those pesky illegal income taxes) built to protect their batch of biological weapons the government has no right to intervene because your neighbor is simply exercising his natural rights.

I think that about covers radar's beliefs.

dmg1969 · 01-20-2009, 10:54 AM

OK. Well, now I understand your position. And I appreciate and respect you for it. I, however, disagree with it.

I also think immigrants should be allowed to enter and work in our country, but I expect them to do so legally. My maternal and paternal grandparents came from the Ukraine and Germany respectively. They did so legally by coming through Ellis Island...not sneeking across a border or on a boat that runs aground in the middle of the night.

I do not think that sneeking across the border and entering the country illegally should qualify someone to stay and/or work here. If I offer an apartment for rent and someone breaks into that apartment, should I still allow that person to rent from me? What does that say about his or her character?

If the government shouldn't have control over immigration and the borders, who should? Oh wait...you said, nobody...they should be open. Why not just give up our sovereignty altogether? Why not just merge with Mexico and Canada?

We have very different views on what it is to be a patriot, my friend. But that's OK...that's what being an American is all about!

xoxoxoBruce · 01-20-2009, 10:59 AM

But dmg, your views are so, so, so majority.

Radar · 01-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969

OK. Well, now I understand your position. And I appreciate and respect you for it. I, however, disagree with it.

I also think immigrants should be allowed to enter and work in our country, but I expect them to do so legally. My maternal and paternal grandparents came from the Ukraine and Germany respectively. They did so legally by coming through Ellis Island...not sneeking across a border or on a boat that runs aground in the middle of the night.

I do not think that sneeking across the border and entering the country illegally should qualify someone to stay and/or work here. If I offer an apartment for rent and someone breaks into that apartment, should I still allow that person to rent from me? What does that say about his or her character?

If the government shouldn't have control over immigration and the borders, who should? Oh wait...you said, nobody...they should be open. Why not just give up our sovereignty altogether? Why not just merge with Mexico and Canada?

We have very different views on what it is to be a patriot, my friend. But that's OK...that's what being an American is all about!

I also don't like the idea of people sneaking across the border. My family came to America before there was a processing center at Ellis island. They simply showed up and looked for work, and America was a better place for it.

When immigrants were processed at Ellis island, they simply showed up, took a physical, signed their name and they were legal. If the process were still that simple, we wouldn't have to worry about people sneaking in. They would prefer to walk in the front door, than crawl through the back door.

I'm not saying that the government can't have power over immigration. I'm saying it does not currently have that power. In order for the government to have this power, the U.S. Constitution would have to be amended. As it currently stands, states do have the legal power to regulate immigration, but the federal government does not.

Open immigration does nothing to reduce or increase our national sovereignty. Nor does it do anything to reduce or increase our national security. Peaceful immigrants are not an invasion and are not a threat.

I, like our founders, know that our strength is in our diversity and I welcome immigrants from all nations to America to become part of our melting pot. America is a nation built entirely by immigrants and the offspring of those immigrants. This is the beauty of America. I can go to China, Italy, or Germany but I can't become Chinese, Italian, or German. But anyone from China, Italy, or Germany can come to America and be just as American as anyone born here. In fact in many cases, they are MORE American because they don't take citizenship for granted. There are people in this world who would run through a hail of bullets to experience the kind of freedom and opportunity we have in America.

By allowing a free flow of immigrants into America, we ensure that we have a flow of fresh ideas and new approaches to our problems. In addition to immigrants not taking our freedoms for granted, they also tend to work harder than those who have been here longer and become soft.

Historically even going back to the founding of this country, there have always been alarmists who say that immigrants won't "assimilate" or "learn the language" even though America has never had an official language. History has proven them all to be wrong. Each new wave of immigrants has brought with them their home culture and that culture has become part of the melting pot. Each of them has eventually "assimilated" into the American culture.

A Mexican immigrant who sneaks across the border at night is no better or worse than German or Ukrainian immigrants who went to Ellis island. Both seek a better life and more opportunity for themselves and their offspring. The fact that one of them followed an unconstitutional procedure and the other didn't is irrelevant.

If the people of America want to amend the Constitution to have powers over immigration, then so be it. I just don't want our government to violate the Constitution or ignore it, and I don't appreciate people being falsely labeled as "illegal" immigrants when they have not violated any legitimate or Constitutional laws.

regular.joe · 01-20-2009, 07:53 AM

classicman · 01-20-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

This seat taken? Do ya think we should warn dmg?

dmg1969 · 01-20-2009, 08:36 AM

Warn me about what? Radar has an opinion and I have an opinion. Illegal immigration just happens to be my hot button issue.

01-19-2009, 12:43 PM	#1
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	Bush Commutes Sentences of Border Patrol Agents http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090119/...h/bush_pardons WASHINGTON – In his final acts of clemency, President George W. Bush on Monday commuted the prison sentences of two former U.S. Border Patrol agents whose convictions for shooting a Mexican drug dealer ignited fierce debate about illegal immigration. Bush's decision to commute the sentences of Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, who tried to cover up the shooting, was welcomed by both Republican and Democratic members of Congress. They had long argued that the agents were merely doing their jobs, defending the American border against criminals. They also maintained that the more than 10-year prison sentences the pair was given were too harsh. Rancor over their convictions, sentencing and firings has simmered ever since the shooting occurred in 2005. Ramos and Compean became a rallying point among conservatives and on talk shows where their supporters called them heroes. Nearly the entire bipartisan congressional delegation from Texas and other lawmakers from both sides of the political aisle pleaded with Bush to grant them clemency. Bush didn't pardon the men for their crimes, but decided instead to commute their prison sentences because he believed they were excessive and that they had already suffered the loss of their jobs, freedom and reputations, a senior administration official said. The action by the president, who believes the border agents received fair trials and that the verdicts were just, does not diminish the seriousness of their crimes, the official said. Compean and Ramos, who have served about two years of their sentences, are expected to be released from prison within the next two months. They were convicted of shooting admitted drug smuggler Osvaldo Aldrete Davila in the buttocks as he fled across the Rio Grande, away from an abandoned van load of marijuana. The border agents argued during their trials that they believed the smuggler was armed and that they shot him in self defense. The prosecutor in the case said there was no evidence linking the smuggler to the van of marijuana. The prosecutor also said the border agents didn't report the shooting and tampered with evidence by picking up several spent shell casings. The agents were fired after their convictions on several charges, including assault with a dangerous weapon and with serious bodily injury, violation of civil rights and obstruction of justice. All their convictions, except obstruction of justice, were upheld on appeal. With the new acts of clemency, Bush has granted a total of 189 pardons and 11 commutations. That's fewer than half as many as Presidents Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan issued during their two-term tenures. Bush technically has until noon on Tuesday when President-elect Barack Obama is sworn into office to exercise his executive pardon authority, but presidential advisers said no more were forthcoming. The president had made most of his pardon decisions on low-profile cases, but his batch in December created controversy. Isaac Robert Toussie of Brooklyn, N.Y, convicted of making false statements to the Department of Housing and Urban Development and of mail fraud, was among 19 people Bush pardoned just before Christmas. But after learning in news reports that Toussie's father had donated tens of thousands of dollars to the Republican Party a few months ago, as well as other information, the president reversed his decision on Toussie's case. The White House said the decision to revoke the pardon — a step unheard of in recent memory — was based on information about the extent and nature of Toussie's prior criminal offenses, and that neither the White House counsel's office nor the president had been aware of a political contribution by Toussie's father and wanted to avoid creating an appearance of impropriety. In an earlier high-profile official act of forgiveness, Bush saved Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, from serving prison time in the case of the 2003 leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity. Libby was convicted of perjury and obstructing justice. Bush could still grant him a full pardon, although Libby has not applied for one. Bush's batches of pardons, however, have never included any well-known convicts like junk bond dealer Michael Milken, who sought a pardon on securities fraud charges, or two politicians convicted of public corruption — former Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, R-Calif., and four-term Democratic Louisiana Gov. Edwin W. Edwards — who wanted Bush to shorten their prison terms. Clinton issued a total of 457 in eight years in office. Bush's father, George H. W. Bush, issued 77 in four years. Reagan issued 406 in eight years, and President Carter issued 563 in four years. Since World War II, the largest number of pardons and commutations — 2,031 — came from President Truman, who served 82 days short of eight years.

01-19-2009, 03:51 PM	#2
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	He should be commended. Those guys should never have gone to prison. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

01-19-2009, 03:58 PM	#3
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Good for the Border Agents. I remember that case. Interesting statistics there at the end. Clinton issued a total of 457 in eight years George H. W. Bush, issued 77 in four years Reagan issued 406 in eight years Carter issued 563 in four years Truman issued 2,031 in eight years* Bush has granted a total of 189 pardons. Guess you actually have to prosecute to pardon. Thats all I can figure. Why is Bush's number so much lower? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-19-2009, 06:12 PM	#4
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Bush Jr.'s rate is still higher than his father's was. It's just a question of how far-reaching one's empathy and second-guessing of the court system is. Plus, Bush Jr. is the "tough on crime" type. A record number of inmates were executed during his governorship of Texas as well. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

01-20-2009, 01:17 AM	#6
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Those scumbags should still be in prison. It makes sense that Bush would commute the sentences of jackbooted fascist thugs from an illegal agency who shot a guy in the back who didn't have a weapon. I only hope they suffered a lot in prison and got raped a bunch. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

01-20-2009, 10:40 AM	#9
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	rather than watch this go back and forth for the next four days with no change in opinions, dmg - please allow me to summarize what you will read if you continue this thread: radar: we have natural rights that do not come from the government and the government has no right to step on those rights. if your neighbor was to shoot heroin into his scrotum while giving proper meth cooking directions to 13 illegal immigrants each holding a 50cal machine gun and laughing about the small thermonuclear device they've (paid for with money they saved by not paying those pesky illegal income taxes) built to protect their batch of biological weapons the government has no right to intervene because your neighbor is simply exercising his natural rights. I think that about covers radar's beliefs. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

01-20-2009, 10:54 AM	#10
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	OK. Well, now I understand your position. And I appreciate and respect you for it. I, however, disagree with it. I also think immigrants should be allowed to enter and work in our country, but I expect them to do so legally. My maternal and paternal grandparents came from the Ukraine and Germany respectively. They did so legally by coming through Ellis Island...not sneeking across a border or on a boat that runs aground in the middle of the night. I do not think that sneeking across the border and entering the country illegally should qualify someone to stay and/or work here. If I offer an apartment for rent and someone breaks into that apartment, should I still allow that person to rent from me? What does that say about his or her character? If the government shouldn't have control over immigration and the borders, who should? Oh wait...you said, nobody...they should be open. Why not just give up our sovereignty altogether? Why not just merge with Mexico and Canada? We have very different views on what it is to be a patriot, my friend. But that's OK...that's what being an American is all about!

01-20-2009, 10:59 AM	#11
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	But dmg, your views are so, so, so majority. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

01-20-2009, 07:53 AM	#13
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	__________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

01-20-2009, 08:36 AM	#15
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	Warn me about what? Radar has an opinion and I have an opinion. Illegal immigration just happens to be my hot button issue.

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