Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

Originally Posted by MaggieL

"This conflict" is a nice neutral way to put it.

Look, I'm weary of the moral equivalance spiel. Israel is trying to defend itself against a militia in civilian camoflage, puppets of Syria and Iran, who has sworn to wipe them off the face of the planet. When they try to do this, the liberals of the world rise up in unison Greek chorus about how awful it is. How long can you expect them to turn the other cheek and be good sports about this?

Do you beleive Israel has a right to exist at all? Because clearly this won't stop until Iran is satisfied, and they've stated what they want quite plainly. If you just want to see them overrun, be honest enough to say so openly.

When someone states that they intend to kill you, you would be wise to believe them.

Exactly... my mother always had an issue with the fact that when someone said "I'm going to kick your ass" I immediately hit them, usually knocking them out. I never pulled a punch in my life. Self defense is just that, keeping someone from hurting you and yours when you know that they will do so.
If they say it, you have no choice but to believe them... always.
Waiting for them to hit you first is for idiots.
They have no reason to say it other than backing it up.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

When the absurdity of the outcomes of this political correctness becomes unsupportable, they trot out the last line of defense: the "everyone is to blame/equally at fault" moral equivalance song.

Now wait just one cotton-pickin' second here... I'm not trying to use that as a 'last line of defense' or as moral equivalance or anything like that. I think that Israel is totally in the right in this partucular scuffle. Hisballah IS totally wrong to do what they are doing, I completely agree. But in the more general "everyone in the area VS. Israel" game, I think both sides need to shut up and stop.

Are you understanding my argument at all now?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Now wait just one cotton-pickin' second here... I'm not trying to use that as a 'last line of defense' or as moral equivalance or anything like that.

That comment wasn't directed particularly at you.

But it certainly seems to me that the outcome of "both sides need to do ${X}" pronouncements is that Israel, being a nation, gets enormous international pressure to do ${X} and its enemies continue to do pretty much exactly what they please, because there is just about zero accountability for them...they're all operating as militias or terrorist cells or surrogates or factions or quasi-political-parties.

Hezbollah is a perfect example of this. When somebody knocks at their door for accountability, nobody's home, because they're not a nation. But turn around and everybody's telling you how "legitimate" they are because they have elected members in Lebanon's parliament. But when Israel respond to their military attacks, suddenly it's cast as an "unprovoked attack on Lebanon". It's just part of the same old shell game; high-stakes three-card monty.

[jaguar]

It is worth taking into account that Iran is a very major conduit for heroin to the west and to their credit, the Iranians have been working hard to combat that and have lost quite a lot of troops in the process fighting well armed and organised drug-running groups.

[Ibby]

Well if that wasnt really directed at me I retract any indignancy from that post.

And I agree that its hard to pressure an entity about as solid as jello, but my idealist "both sides need to just STOP" is just that, idealism, and ideally, the militant groups would decide to stop on their own because it's the best thing to do.

...Yeah, and ideally, I'd be a legal adult and could move back to the states without getting arrested.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by jaguar

...to their credit, the Iranians have been working hard to combat that ...

And on the other side of the ledger is giving away the equipment they were given for exactly that effort to their surrogates attacking Israel.

[Hippikos]

It would have required quite a crystal ball to forsee those turns of events over that timespan.

Not really. Even Stevie Wonder can see the trail of former allies turned enemy the US leaved behind the last 50 years, Saddam being one of them. Saddam´s Russian (and French) military supplies were mainly financed by Bush Sr´s Chile connection as you can read in the Teicher Affidavit. As usual the world around you is bit more complicated than you think.

To accuse the UN that they knew 3 years ago that the night goggles would arrive with Hezbollah is simply proposterous.

US donates Israel $9.000.000.000 annually in funds and military supply, Hezbollah gets its supply from Iran, that´s how it goes in war, for centuries. Israel destroys Lebanon and Bush pays for it ($250 mio), how nice to have a sugar daddy around...

[jaguar]

Yes, but it's not like the equipment was given without good reason, or was given with that use in mind.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

To accuse the UN that they knew 3 years ago that the night goggles would arrive with Hezbollah is simply proposterous.

They knew that the stuff was highly sensitive military equipment you can't just buy at the local Cop Shop.

Is it that big a stretch to think they'd give it to their own milita surrogates? It's one thing to say "over 50 years many of the US allies have turned against the US, they should have known", but how hard is it to know that Hezbollah was created by Iran?

No "turning" needed there...

As I recall, Saddam's major equipment we went up against in both wars was pretty much all Russian-supplied...so much so that the street value of Russian arrnor took a nosedive after Gulf War I. Whatever he got from us was mostly used up on the Iranians, either in combat or (in the case of combat aircraft, later) flown to their airbases as some kind of strange gift.

[Hippikos]

Hizbollah was created because of the Israeli occupation in Lebanon. The US and Israel should know by now that you cannot invade a country without repercussions.

Yes, Saddam used most of it against Iran and the Kurds as we know. Rumsfeld visit to Saddam was to emphasize that fact. That´s why Saddam´s removal was a major geopolitical strategic blunder by the Bush guvmint allowing Iran to become the regions most poweful nation. Bush Sr knew that geopolitical fact and left him in power. Bush Jr as we know has a mission from God and the neocons kidnapped his foreign policy with disastrous consequenses.

So, US supplies Israel, Iran supplies Hezbollah, what else is new? Whole industries depend on it. Read Pres. Eisenhowers Military Industrial Complex Speech:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

[9th Engineer]

Who was it that proposed we just increase the death toll to 30% on all sides? It may be disturbing, but we're comming down to the choice of either doing something like that or just forgetting the entire thing is going on. That is, unless the UN decides to do their job and act as an impartial military buffer, if the US does it we'll be screamed at for acting unilaterally again. Tell me, who polices the UN when gross negligence on their part allows this sort of situation to go on and on?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Hizbollah was created because of the Israeli occupation in Lebanon.

Beware the passive voice. It was created by Iran as a surrogate; it didn't spring from the brow of Zeus.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Tell me, who polices the UN when gross negligence on their part allows this sort of situation to go on and on?

Nobody.

[Hippikos]

The whole situation sprung from the Zionist movement in the late 19th century.

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Beware the passive voice. It was created by Iran as a surrogate; it didn't spring from the brow of Zeus.

MaggieL cannot acknowledge reality: Hezbollah was created by Lebanese in response to Israel's invasion followed by aggressive abuse of Lebanese civilians. Those same Lebanese first welcomed the Israelis with flowers and rice. Even the details - ‘flowers and rice’ - were reported in history. MaggieL must forget that detail. As Israeli soldiers abused Lebanese, then Hezbollah was created to defend Lebanon from Israel.

Why did Israel withdraw from Lebanon? Too many Israeli deaths as Hezbollah drove Israel from Lebanon. More details that MaggieL must forget when using a perspective of a world in black and white. Clearly Israelis wear white and Hezbollah wears black. Clearly the world is not about perspectives.

Then return to reality. When Israel and the 'abused victims in Lebanon' finally start negotiating, then Hezbollah will need not shop the world for tools to defend Lebanon.

Instead MaggieL says - in the great tradition of Gen Westmoreland - that all Hezbollah must be murdered so that peace will break out. That must be her conclusion when the world is about 'good verses evil'. She offers no other solution. Her world denies that Israel violence against Lebanese civilians that created Hezbollah.

MaggieL even forgets who arranged the massacre of 5000 Palestinian women and children. Clearly it must have been Hezbollah who wear black. White clad Israelis would never massacre those 5000 refugees? Not in MaggieL's world.

MaggieL must invent another boogey man: Iran created Hezbollah. So Iran also massacred those 5000 women and children? Of course. Color of clothes proves it.

Fashion sense to define evil just does not work. Hezbollah was create by Israel that invaded Lebanon (illegally) and then abused Lebanese civilians (justified by 'they are arabs; therefore they are niggers' attitude).

Notice, unlike MaggieL, I also define a solution: When Israel and the 'abused victims in Lebanon' finally start negotiating, then Hezbollah will need not shop the world for tools to defend Lebanon. But then I am not blinded by the colors 'black and white'. I am biased by reality and a world chock full of perspectives.