humans

[W.HI.P]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

whip

Imagine the world without humans. I am sure you have some image in your head. What does it look like?

i'm obviously not a religious person, but i have studied religion.
while studying christianity, i did picture what heaven would be like....and you've just described my image exactly.

Where is the purpose in that?

you're speaking like there's some kind of purpose with us in this world.

Don't mention man or what he has done to ruin it.
Just the natural world as it would be without man.
What purpose would there be in that?

i'm thinking of the cement prison that we've built on top of the pillow that existed
i'm thinking of the waters and air being clean.
to sum it up for ya, my images of hell, is that which i've witnessed in this life on this earth we fantasies is ours.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

i'm thinking of the cement prison that we've built on top of the pillow that existed
i'm thinking of the waters and air being clean.
to sum it up for ya, my images of hell, is that which i've witnessed in this life on this earth we fantasies is ours.

You live in Canada right?

[W.HI.P]

Originally Posted by DanaC

You live in Canada right?

oui, however, i have travelled 13 years of my life.

[Z҉A҉L҉G҉O]

The purpose of a world without man is the same as the purpose of a world with man.
Both comprise the null set.

[skysidhe]

Zalgo said what I was looking for or it is at least it is what I was thinking as well.


There isn't a difference. Except the world is a natural world. Maybe if man lived like the American Indians you would find that respect toward the earth those humans had more redeeming.

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

i'm obviously not a religious person, but i have studied religion.
while studying christianity, i did picture what heaven would be like....and you've just described my image exactly.

I think this bothers you more than you want to admit. I think you want there to be a god and heaven.

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

you're speaking like there's some kind of purpose with us in this world.

No you are. You keep talking about pink unicorns, religion, the church,pressing the button if someone cannot give you one purpose for the existence of humans and I haven't seen one person arguing that point on a religious level.

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

i'm thinking of the cement prison that we've built on top of the pillow that existed
i'm thinking of the waters and air being clean.
to sum it up for ya, my images of hell, is that which i've witnessed in this life on this earth we fantasies is ours.

ok

I don't think anyone would argue with that and so it is the heart of the matter finally? I apologize for my confusion but this has been a meandering course of contradictions.

Man's purpose then should be proactive if something about the world is wrong. Man's purpose is always try to improve,learn and become a contributing member for the good of the world in which they live.

Again why not join Greenpeace or some organization like it. There are many that support the natural world.

Man's purpose is to do good in the world before one takes his last breath. That brings meaning to it. Everyone's purpose is different.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

There isn't a difference. Except the world is a natural world. Maybe if man lived like the American Indians you would find that respect toward the earth those humans had more redeeming.

American Indians still destroyed the environment, there is really nothing anyone can do to avoid it. Hell, even other animals do it to a point. Cows will eat all the grass in a particular field and will have to move on to another. Humans do the same but just on a much larger scale.

Its just that problems occur when a population stops being self-sustainable.

[SamIam]

All this crap about purpose is extremely beside the point. As the Buddha said, we all suffer. We suffer because of our desires. Always we are pulling things toward us or pushing them away. All we have of life is this present moment. The past is gone and the future never comes because its always just today. Treat other beings (especially cats) with kindness and strive to do right action and calm the mind. That's it. No pink unicorns needed. You argue about purposes while your life passes you by.

[skysidhe]

My point pierce was they originally tried to live in 'harmony' with the land. Nothing is absolute.

Which just reminded me of 'green' technology which attempts to make society become responsible for the earth.

lol sam. ( the part about cats )

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

My point pierce was they originally tried to live in 'harmony' with the land. Nothing is absolute.

That is more of a stereotype then anything. Every culture destroys it environment. It is true that some native populations were much more respectful to the environment then most "Old World" populations, but I think a lot of "natives living in harmony with the Earth" stuff is highly romanticized, especially when you generalize the entire group of American Indians.

Also, my point is not to be picky but to show that populations that live in harmony with the Earth are extremely rare and romanticized. It is also something that would be impossible for a non-hunter gatherer society to achieve. That is why I would stress sustainability over anything.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

i'm thinking of the cement prison that we've built on top of the pillow that existed
i'm thinking of the waters and air being clean.
to sum it up for ya, my images of hell, is that which i've witnessed in this life on this earth we fantasies is ours.

Originally Posted by skysidhe

ok

I don't think anyone would argue with that and so it is the heart of the matter finally? I apologize for my confusion but this has been a meandering course of contradictions.

Wrong, I will. The reason for all that concrete, is people were tired of wallowing in the mud, you describe an a "pillow".
You wax poetic about unfettered nature, like the world without people would be a giant Maxfield Parrish painting. Bullshit, go camping in the rain.

[regular.joe]

What I think this has been, is an exorcise in mongoso Ego. Really, I'm so damn smart that I know everyone else in the world, that's right, everyone...the entire human race is fucking this place up. It would be better if they were all just gone.

Sure, we will all just drop dead, just for you.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I would stress sustainability over anything.

I said nothing was absolute. They lived sustainably.It's not romanced fiction. Yes you are being picky:p

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Wrong, I will. The reason for all that concrete, is people were tired of wallowing in the mud, you describe an a "pillow".
You wax poetic about unfettered nature, like the world without people would be a giant Maxfield Parrish painting. Bullshit, go camping in the rain.

You crack me up.

Your post reminded me of one the most interesting experiences camping in the rain I had. I grew up camping so that wasn't the interesting part it was when a few years ago I went camping with blind kids. It rained the whole time and I had to show a blind girl how to take a pee in the rain soaked forest who never had to squat before. I eventually found felled trees which made kind of a seat.
Yes there is a lot to be said for modern amenities.

Originally Posted by regular.joe

What I think this has been, is an exorcise in mongoso Ego. Really, I'm so damn smart that I know everyone else in the world, that's right, everyone...the entire human race is fucking this place up. It would be better if they were all just gone.

Sure, we will all just drop dead, just for you.

This is why I love men. Blunt and shooting from the hip.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

My point pierce was [the Indians] originally tried to live in 'harmony' with the land.

Originally Posted by skysidhe

I said nothing was absolute. They lived sustainably.It's not romanced fiction. Yes you are being picky:p

The ecology course I took in college over 20 years ago put that myth to rest. The main reason they were not as bad to the environment as we are is that their numbers were smaller.

Thomas Morton, Description of the Indians in New England (1637)

Of their Custom in burning the Country, and the reason thereof.

The Salvages are accustomed to set fire of the Country in all places where they come, and to burne it twice a year, viz.: at the Spring, and the fall of the leaf. The reason that moves them to doe so, is because it would other wise be so overgrown with underweeds that it would be all a coppice wood, and the people would not be able in any wise to pass through the Country out of a beaten path. . . .

The burning of the grass destroys the underwoods, and so scorcheth the elder trees that it shrinks them, and hinders their growth very much: so that he that will looke to finde large trees and good timbcr, must [look] . . . to finde them on the upland ground. . . .

And least their firing of the Country in this manner should be an occasion of damnifying us, and endangering our habitations, we ourselves have used carefully about the same times to observe the winds, and fire the grounds about our owne habitations; to prevent the Damage that might happen by any neglect thereof, if the fire should come near those houses in our absence.

For, when the fire is once kindled, it dilates and spreads itself as well against, as with the wind; burning continually night and day, untill a shower of rain falls to quench it.

And this custom of firing the Country is the meanes to make it passable; and by that meanes the trees growe here and there as in our parks: and makes the Country very beautifull and commodious.

So the Indians of New England burned up the land they were in such harmony with because it made it easier to travel and hunt. They burned off nuisance vegetation simply for convenience. All the small animals that lived in that underbrush were denied their habitat so that more light would get into the woods to support larger game and the hunting of that game. They had very small numbers and still had a HUGE impact on their environment.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Columbus just followed the smoke.

[Pie]

...and found pit bar-b-que?