Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy

[Yelof]

Everything here can also be true of a 6 year old who knows Santa isn't real

juju is right, my 5 almost 6 year old daughter knows that father christmas and the tooth faries don't exist, we used to play along for the fun but when she asks (and they ask questions REPEATEDLY at this age ) directly we just tell her it they are just stories. That doesn't stop her from playing along with the fun when she wants or from her making believe that they exist, although this year for Christmas she wanted to be the one who dressed up as Santa.

Other mythical figures we have to deal with are god and "menino Jesus", I have tried to be a little bit more open in this, we don't speak about them but Portugal is culturally catholic and her kindergarden teachers will talk to her about religion etc, I tell her that I don't believe in god or Jesus and why. But that many people do and she should respect their beliefs whatever she finally decides to believe. I tell her that Jesus spoke of compassion for the poor and warned that we should right our own faults before we should try to right the faults of others, but I also tell that that doesn't make him a god. She understands this but then she also talks about "menino Jesus" up in the sky helping people, it is not worth fighting, kids are quite able to keep inconsistancies alive in their heads at that age (many continue to keep such inconsistancies)

I had to explain the story of "Noah's Ark" the other day to her, very hard to keep a neutral tone...I mean come on, God decides to kill everybody because he wasn't happy with what he made????

-edited because of my even worse than english Portuguese spelling skills

[glatt]

My 5 year old daughter hears from lots of other people about Santa Claus. I might read her a book about him, but I have never said anything to her to lend weight to the idea that he is real. She has asked me before if Santa is real, and I have said that I have heard of him, but never seen him. When we have presents under the tree, every tag on a present says who the present is from. There is nothing from "Santa."

I don't want to come right out and tell her that Santa is a lie, because I see that she enjoys it. But I also am trying to give her a dose of healthy scepticism, so she won't be crushed. I think the seed has been planted in her mind.

I remember being disillusioned when I figured out Santa wasn't real. I had friends who beleived in Santa long after other kids had figured it out, and had even told them. Their parents went to absurd lengths to keep the fantasy alive. That's just wrong.

[lookout123]

why is that wrong? does a belief in santa or the easter bunny injure the child in any way? children enjoy the mystery surrounding thesekind hearted souls who only come when they are sleeping, and i enjoy seeing the wonder in my son's eyes during those holidays.

i don't judge you for not participating, but i do ask why? where is the harm?

edit: there is plenty of time in their adult lives for cynicism and skepticism. childhood is for pure enjoyment.

[juju]

Because, if I were ignorant, I would not want someone to tell me lies. I'd want to know the truth.

Just think if you were deceived. What if the Moon landing were a myth? There is in fact no Space Program. There never was! It was all a farce by the government to keep our spirits up. Ha ha, they really put one over on you! Wasn't the fantasy of it all worth it, though?

I'd really rather know the truth than be deceived. One can still fantasize and be filled with wonder while knowing the truth.

[perth]

I'm absolutely with Juju on this one. I heard it said on some show on NPR, may have been Prairie Home Companion, "A father should never lie, especially to his children". Regardless of your *intent* when you tell your children that Santa Claus is real, it's still a lie. You really cannot argue this point. And when they do discover the truth, it's going to be painful on a lot of levels. It may or may not be permanent damage, but as for me, I would rather not deal with it.

Sometimes in life a little white lie may be appropriate, but I cannot imagine any situation in which it is appropriate to lie to your children and risk any kind of erosion of trust. My son relies on me completely and will for many years to come. It is imperative to me that he always know he can trust his dad.

[Cyber Wolf]

Maybe I'm the exception, but I wasn't at all traumatized by finding out about Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny too. The Easter Bunny was the last one I found out about, mainly because I could never understand how he(she/it?) would get into my room, past my alarms and traps. (I wanted to take its picture ) If anything, finding out about these stories made me want to learn more about mythology and where those stories came from and their origins, then the origins of that soceity and the people...in short, it helped kick off my love of learning more than it caused me to not trust my parents or feel I'm not loved or feel I've been lied to, etc. I'm a total myth and legend junkie now and I'm glad my parents got me interested in stories and myths like that and I fully intend to do the same with my kids...if I have any kids.

Perhaps its possible to let kids live with these stories and, when they find out, use that experience to introduce children to myths and legends from all over the world? So much of our soceity is built on characters, places and events of myths (Nike, for example, wasn't originally a sneaker and the concept of the 26 mile marathon came from the same place). If nothing else, it'll help them later on when they want to do crossword puzzles

[perth]

But the thing is, you can nurture an interest in mythology without letting your children believe a lie (it may be harsh to call it a lie, but let's call a spade a spade). Mythology is fascinating and almost always entertaining, I'm quite partial to Nordic and Irish mythology. Again, I think it's best, in my case, to allow my child to live the fantasy, but make sure he knows it's fantasy. I'm not going to dupe my kid.

And I'm not sure how Nike and the 26 mile marathon are related. Nike was, if I remember correctly the Greek Goddess of Victory, and the 26 mile marathon came from, what, when Phillipides (sp?) ran from Athens to Sparta (a distance of about 26 miles) to request help.

Oh, I getcha. both Greek. Duh.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by lookout123

why is that wrong? does a belief in santa or the easter bunny injure the child in any way? children enjoy the mystery surrounding thesekind hearted souls who only come when they are sleeping, and i enjoy seeing the wonder in my son's eyes during those holidays.

i don't judge you for not participating, but i do ask why? where is the harm?

edit: there is plenty of time in their adult lives for cynicism and skepticism. childhood is for pure enjoyment.

I agree. Kids like this kind of stuff, and there's no reason that they shouldn't believe in them as long as possible. Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny ARE real....they just happen to work through parents--so technically, there is no lie involved. I plan to take up the mantles of all three when Ash is old enough to care.


Sidhe

[perth]

Originally Posted by Lady Sidhe

Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny ARE real....they just happen to work through parents--so technically, there is no lie involved.

Um. What? They aren't real. They're fictional characters. The only one that you could even begin to make the case for is Santa Claus, but even then the best you can claim is that he's based (loosely) on a historical figure.

Somewhere along the line they're going to figure out that there is no fat man living at the North Pole who delivers presents once a year. And when they do, you can try to spin it like that. And maybe they'll buy it. More power to you. I can't say I've ever met anyone who was "fucked up" by their parents telling them or at least letting them believe that there was a Santa Claus. My feeling is that telling my son that the gifts under the tree are from Santa is a big, gigantic, humungous lie. And I won't do that.

[Brigliadore]

Originally Posted by glatt

I remember being disillusioned when I figured out Santa wasn't real. I had friends who beleived in Santa long after other kids had figured it out, and had even told them. Their parents went to absurd lengths to keep the fantasy alive. That's just wrong.

Coming in late to this thread. Sorry. The above is exactly what my dad and step mom did to my little sister. She asked them point blank if Santa was real a number of times and they said yes. She got teased at school because she insisted that Santa was real and every time she came home crying they would insist the children at school were wrong. They even had some book serious they were reading to her at the time and one of the books dealt with finding out Santa wasn't real. I shit you not my step mom skipped over huge sections of the book just so my sister wouldn't find out. Their reason was they didn't want to ruin the fantasy for her. I am sorry but if she is getting teased at school over it, all you are doing is creating distrust and resentment in her when she finds out that all that teasing was based on a lie you didn't want to fess up to. I remember them threatening me with grounding that year if I told her otherwise should she ask. It put me in a shitty position because I didn't want to lie to her, but I knew if I didn't I would get punished and they would just tell her I was lying to her to be mean. I think after watching that crap first hand I would be more apt to not lie to my kids, but then again we don't have any yet so I cant really say for sure.

[Lady Sidhe]

See, now that's just wrong. I would never insist to my child that these beings were real if she straight-out asked me. I'd tell her the story behind them, and explain that we carry on the tradition. Hell, TS still gets presents from Santa. Once one learns they're not "real," it doesn't make it any less fun to participate in the illusion, IMO.




Sidhe

[perth]

Admittedly, I've only got 3 Christmases and Easters under my belt with my son, so my experience is limited. But I can't really imagine how thinking that the presents were dropped down the chimney by an elf with a gland problem or that the eggs were hidden by a monstrous rabbit would add to the fun. The kid already gets spoiled rotten on these days with more toys than he could play with in a year and more candy than a grown adult should be able to manage. I just don't understand where along the line someone decided we, as adults, should treat a make-believe character as honest-to-goodness fact. It doesn't add to the fantasy any more than if I actually believed Gandalf and Frodo and all those other guys actually took an actual evil ring to an actual Mount Doom and threw it in (apologies to anyone who believed that was real).

So. My kid has books about Santa Claus, and even books about the Easter Bunny. It's not like I'm denying him the fantasy, because I'm not. But it's deception to treat Santa as anything more than a fantasy.

And I've been thinking about it. There are certain things I will never bring up with my son, and if asked about it, I will lie. This situation is pretty much exclusively reserved for questions regarding my and Case's divorce. There are things he *never* needs to know, and will only prove to be detrimental to him to know. But there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to tell your child a make-believe character exists in the real world.

[Lady Sidhe]

Ok, is it just me (probably is), but is this being taken a little too seriously? Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are NOT the kinds of things that will fuck up your kid if you enjoy the holidays with any of the three. It's not like telling your kid they're yours if they're really adopted, or anything major. It's all in good fun. Kids like to play make-believe--being able to play make-believe, as a matter of fact, is an essential part of a child's mental and emotional development.

I'm not understanding the hoohah over it.


Sidhe

[perth]

Originally Posted by Lady Sidhe

It's not like telling your kid they're yours if they're really adopted, or anything major.

Hey, I did find out I was adopted, when I was 15. And you know what? Finding out there wasn't a Santa Claus at 7 years old was far more traumatic than discovering the guy I had always called dad wasn't mine biologically. Know why? Because after I found out, I still had a dad.

Yeah, maybe I do take it a bit too seriously. And I apologise if my vehemence seems like venom, that's not my intent (reading back it kind of looks like I was attacking Sidhe, I didn't mean to). But I was lied to a lot as a kid, as I'm sure many others were. I already know for a fact that one day I'm going to end up lying to my son about certain things. So the best I can do is minimise that as much as possible.

Make-believe only works as a developmental tool when the children know it's make-believe. Otherwise it confuses them. If you tell your child that she's a real, honest-to-goodness princess, and keep the story going for years on end, it will be crushing to her when she finally figures out she's just an average kid, and she can't afford her own stable of horses, and she can't have servants do all her chores. But if she knows she's a normal person and that it's a game to pretend to be a princess, she will enjoy it.

I personally think it's just as damaging to constantly remind the child that there is no Santa Claus and not allow them to relish the games. As long as they know it's all in fun, there's no harm.

Clodfobble, I agree. You expressed it far better than I ever could have.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Lady Sidhe

Ok, is it just me (probably is), but is this being taken a little too seriously? Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are NOT the kinds of things that will fuck up your kid if you enjoy the holidays with any of the three. It's not like telling your kid they're yours if they're really adopted, or anything major. It's all in good fun. Kids like to play make-believe--being able to play make-believe, as a matter of fact, is an essential part of a child's mental and emotional development.

I'm not understanding the hoohah over it.


Sidhe

exactly! Kids are hard wired for make believe!


Why have we reached a time in our history where everything has to be 'proper' and politically correct?

You know kids of the past got over fairy tales and the folklore of their country. People have needed fiction from the begining of time.

Imagine having no fiction books,no movies and no sitting around the campfire telling ghost stories. ho hum! Kids need them especially in troubled times. It gives them a release for their minds. That was the original intent of these storys. I don't regret having mine.

LJ paints the perfect picture. How can anyone have related to that felt any kind of bitterness? I think it's sad when people want to take magic away. Good for you too warch and cyber wolf for keeping magic alive!