Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

[Clodfobble]

And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job.

Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does. Perhaps he's grateful that he was given the opportunity to have a job at all instead of being born into a caste system where he was destined to live on the street no matter how hard he worked. When I worked food service, I was the only teenager in the place. Everyone else there were twenty-something and middle-aged guys supporting their families. Some were going to school, some were taking that franchise's management training courses, and some were happy where they were. One guy was officially retired, and worked there for the comeraderie and something to keep him busy. I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.

And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.

That's right. They have to work hard for those things--they have to be willing to work for years to get their experience, they have to practice being polite if they have a temper, they have to do their best to learn from their managers. Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.

People who don't believe in the American Dream are always native-born Americans, never immigrants. What a surprise.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does.....I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.

Geez, relax. I am not putting anyone down. I worked fast food and various retail jobs all through highschool and college. I don't know what kind of Disneyland of a fast food place you were working at, but it's pretty hard for me to believe that "all" of your co-workers were "happy." I worked with people of all different ages, and almost none of them were satisfied working fast food jobs. The hours are long, the pay sucks and people are rude to you. We all worked there because we HAD TO--not because we wanted to.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.

What a cliche. Are you saying someone with an IQ of 75 can be successful in the business world? How about someone who speaks no English? They might be sincere and hard-working, but I can pretty much guaratee you they're not going to be successful, at least not in the FINANCIAL sense of the word.

Originally Posted by Brianna

With a two-year degree (and the State will pay for it!) you can start out making 50K--but you gotta be willing to wear the scrubs. You gotta be willing to work weekends and nights. You gotta be willing to put up with a lot of BS and you've gotta believe in the divinity of doctors----just kidding!

...just kidding about the divinity of doctors thing. Everything else stands.

Wow! What's the program? I want to call up my voc-rehab counselor and see if it's something I might be able to do given my current limitations. Does the job command that much money for an inexperienced grad anywhere? Please give more details.

Originally Posted by Lookout123

Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world..

OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood." If you disagree with the things I wrote in my earlier post, simply say so and then give the facts to back up your opinion. The only people who feel that it's acceptable to make a condescending statement which turns a debate into one of personalities are politicians, and look at how much respect we have for all of THEM.

Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year. Meanwhile just outside the Bronx in Mount Vernon there is a public school where 97% of the students who attend are black. One out of ten of these students live in a homeless shelter. Visit that school's library and try to find books about or by Langston Hughes, the great black poet. Nor are there books about Rosa Parks, Josephine Baker, or Leontyne Price or any other famous black Americans. The newest encyclopedia in the library dates from 1991 and has the volumes "b" and "r" missing. There is no computer or card catalog in the library and almost all the books date from the 50's and 60's when the student body was mostly white. You want to tell me which child is going to score higher on his SAT's (if he even takes them)? The one from the private $26,000/yr school or the child who attended the one in Mount Vernon? These are FACTS* and have nothing to do with the "cult of victimhood."

Here's another fact: 44 MILLION Americans, eight out of ten of them in working families, are uninsured and cannot get even the most basic medical care from the "best system of medical care in the world." What has happened to the "American dream" for those 44 million Americans?

Fact: The gap between the rich and the poor in this country has become greater than at any time in the past 50 years. We have the worst inequality that way of ANY OTHER Western nation. The gap between the top 20% in income and the lower 20% has increased from 30 fold in 1960 to 75 fold today. Put this together with the steady dismanteling of public services like schools and health care and tuition assistance for higher education and this gap becomes an obscenity. Is this the realizatiion of the "American dream"?

I look around my country today and I sometimes feel something very close to despair. We are loosing something very precious and something that we should all cherish deeply - democracy and the "great American experiment" in order to satisfy the desires of the corporate world and a wealthy minority for ever more money and ever higher profits, be they deserved or not.

I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.

*The facts I cite in this post can be found here:http://www.inequality.org/moyerstranscript.pdf

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by garnet

Yeah right. Have you ever tried getting one of those scholarships or grants lately? Or even better, try paying off those student loans before you drop dead at age 80.

yeah, i did. i did get a couple of small scholarship offers, but i didn't commit myself enough to earn the large ones. payoff student loans? yep, i've done that too. i just made my last payment last month. oh, yeah i had the GI BIll too. I thought a college education was important enough to risk active duty so i enlisted. like a lot of people who are there right now and are happy with their decision.

And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job.

and throw in a dash of arrogance to make it just right... damn garnet don't you realize that everyone's job seems shitty to someone? sure he has to deal with rude condescending customers who think his choice in careers sucks, but he probably feels pretty good knowing he made an honest buck. i've got friends that make half what i do but make fun of my shitty job. they couldn't imagine dealing with the people i do, the hours i do, and being stuck at a desk for days at a time. some of them think physical labor jobs suck but my dad and his friends are pretty satisfied that they toiled in the factory and provided for their families. my point is - who do you think you are to declare another person's job or life shitty?

And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.

damn them for wanting someone qualified for the job. it doesn't take that long to get the job when a person decides to make it a career. you can earn your way into the position faster by skipping the 4 years of college and working your way up there often times.

There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.

everyone has access to the "dream" (i hate the term - i think access to opportunity is better) not everyone chooses to pursue it. and you can't measure one person's success against another's. not everyone has the same priorities.

The hours are long, the pay sucks and people are rude to you. We all worked there because we HAD TO--not because we wanted to.

welcome to the real world. we all do what we do because we have to. you can either snivel and whine about it or accept the shape of the world and make the most of it. your attitude and outlook in life rest entirely in your hands. and success is more dependent upon those 2 things than maybe anything else.

What a cliche. Are you saying someone with an IQ of 75 can be successful in the business world?

sure, i saw forrest gump. but seriously - not everyone has the same abilities so not everyone will have the same career. that doesn't make the landscaper who may be a little slower or not know english and less successful in life than the local banker, unless you only define success in terms of $$$. i have met more people who make $40,000 who are genuinely happy than i have people who make $200,000 - and i meet a lot of both of them. each has to deal with the difficulties unique to their positions.

the american dream is about finding happiness and fulfillment. the journey is as important as the destination and will be different for everyone.

[ladysycamore]

Originally Posted by echo

Who can tell me something about the American Dream.?its origin,its symbol, etc.Where can I find some information or knowledge about it? Thanks in advance.

It's become a nightmare.

[Trilby]

Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by marichiko

OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood."

I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.

OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.
and if you want to convince yourself that i live in some sheltered little world immune to the dark scary world you live in i don't know what else to tell you. you have no clue on my life experiences so you may want to be careful on that, it hasn't been all roses and butterfly kisses, but it has been interesting so i wouldn't trade it for the world.
I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.
as far as seeing me in hell? thanks but i'll pass, i don't think we believe in the same hell anyway.
anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.

Originally Posted by Brianna

Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.

Er.... that's CO poisoning, CO2 wouldn't hurt a fly. We breathe it out as a by product of the respitory process after every breath we take in. Minor point, but if you are somehow affiliated with the medical end of things, you should be aware of this. I know several RN's and the training they undergo requires a MINIMUM of 4 years. They are required to pass classes in chemistry, biology, and mathematics which require a brain to go along with the heart beat. Not a single one of them started out making $50,000 a year either. What are the sources for your statements?

[Trilby]

[quote=marichiko]Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.


Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.

Too bad.

Originally Posted by lookout123

OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.

I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.

anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.

It is condescending to state "you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world." Calling someone a "victim" is a fighting word in my part of the world, and I bet it is in yours, as well. When you say someone is playing out a part in a "cult of victimhood" and that negativity is holding them down, you invalidate that person's statements as mere trivia - artifacts of an emotional mentality, rather than as observations made by the intellect. In this manner, you call upon others to dismiss my words and, in effect, silence me.

I realize that your overt intent was not to be mean spirited. However, you should realize the implications of your final sentences.

There is a very fine line to draw between realism and victimhood. I think that there are more instances than we care to believe when the reality IS that "things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is."

In my opinion the victim makes this statement and then lies down and lets the tanks roll over him. The fighter may make this statement, but stands up anyway and at least maybe shoots out one tank before being rolled over by the rest. There are some truths that we would all rather not face and it is easier to deny them rather than face them; harder to realize them and give in to despair; and most difficult of all to stand up to them knowing that defeat is almost a certainty, but fighting on despite this.

Our country is in a state of crisis and a few people are finally beginning to awaken to this fact. I am pretty cynical about the possibility of turning things around, but I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.

[Trilby]

you can become an Rn with a 2 year associates degree, or, pass a test that the state requires if you are from another country. Sorry about the typo on the CO/Co2 thing--see, you are smarter than I am already! and you're brain damaged! what do you know!~! YOU CAN be a nurse!!


Really, HONEY, you don't have to have a bachelor's to be an Rn. Your friends are fooling you!

Um-you drive, don't you, Mari? Doesn't that take some critical thinking?

My sources for salary: myself. Starting out, recent measly 2 year grad, I made 50K. You didn't mention the working weekends and nights, though, did you? Yes, I worked weekends and nights. Probably not to your liking, doing that. Some people make sacrifices. How long have you paid into SSDI?

[garnet]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I thought a college education was important enough to risk active duty so i enlisted.

That's you. You're pro-war, too. If you had a kid just graduate from high school and wanted to go to college, would you encourage him or her to enlist to get funding NOW? Calll me crazy, but I personally would not risk my LIFE to get a college education. It's Iraq now--who knows where George will have soldiers dying in a couple years from now.

Originally Posted by lookout123

..... but he probably feels pretty good knowing he made an honest buck.

Are you psychic? How do you know that all these people "feel good" about their jobs?

Originally Posted by lookout123

my point is - who do you think you are to declare another person's job or life shitty?

You should go back and read my posts before you make reactionary, accusatory statements like that. Like I stated, I worked fast food and retail jobs all through college and, in my opinion, those jobs were shitty. Most of the people I worked with hated their jobs too. Why would I put someone down for working these jobs when I'VE WORKED THESE SAME JOBS MYSELF? No sense insulting myself when I've got wonderful people like you on this forum to do it for me.

Originally Posted by lookout123

welcome to the real world.

Sweetie, I'm quite familiar with the real world, thank you. I've worked full time since I was 16. Nobody ever handed me anything.

Originally Posted by lookout123

the american dream is about finding happiness and fulfillment. the journey is as important as the destination and will be different for everyone.

Your platitudes are starting to become a little tedious....

[jaguar]

I kind of agree with lookout, different people are happy with different things but I do think he/you are being a tad idealistic.

Call me crazy but I don't think people should have to risk getting shrapnel to the face to get a college degree, the Economist loves to bitch about funded Unis in places like the UK and Australia but crap, it's better than the US system. Not perfect but better.

[quote=Brianna]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.


Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.

Too bad.

"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.

[elSicomoro]

I think the American Dream these days requires a lot of hard work, making carefully-considered choices and catching a break.

*thinks* Yeah...I'll leave it at that.