Woman killed for her unborn baby - Page 3

Nightsong · 01-06-2005, 04:45 PM

Here in Sc we have a gentleman who has a bill he has been pushing to make law for some time. I am behind him. You see his brother worked at the power plant. One of his coworkers had been out sick. (under observation). he walked into the locker room that day. and started changing for work. When the gentlemens brother asked him how he was. he reponded fine. When the brother turned to change the other man shot him in the head.

The man is in the state hospital and they try to release him every year. His own mother wants him to stay locked up because she says shw knows he is still dangerous. Yet the state says that since the docs say he's sane enough and he is over 18 they should release him. Ofcourse the state also won't prococute the murder since he wasn't in his right mind.

The bill would create a new law. One that says you can only plead GUILTY by reason of insanity. The mandatory sentence would include a hospital stay and once "sane" a term of jail keeping with the crime. Mind you this is only for viiolent offenders.

SPeaking of which. I am of the opinion that none violent crime is best handled with fines and community service. Or better yet work out servittude to the county state what have you based on crimes. Get some real work outta these bozos. I personally believe crimes against ones self, drinking, drugs and such should not be crimes at all. not UNLESS you cause pain or
loss to someone else. If all you hurt is you, that is your own problem.

As for the case at hand. Mental illness can be horrible. I often feel sorry for these people. Hell I use to hear voices. I got a little help and learned to deal with it. Now days they only call on holidays but seriously, this woman KILLED. Not a sudden moment of rage or an accident in traffic. She thought it out. SHe may well be sick. She may well think the cat is from Venus. Had she just kidnapped a new born, I would say lock her up and treat her. But she took the life of another. SHe meant to do it too. SIck or not, cull the herd. We put a dog down when it breaks the social contract and kills a person. Often even another dog. THe dog quite probably does not see what he has done as wrong. We still kill him to protect us. Should humans be any different. Frankly most days I would rather have the dog treated and get rid of the people. That last line was pure spite but it suits.

It is NOT payback. It is NOT vengence. Hell, it aint even justice. It is simply the END.

Happy Monkey · 01-06-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightsong

The bill would create a new law. One that says you can only plead GUILTY by reason of insanity. The mandatory sentence would include a hospital stay and once "sane" a term of jail keeping with the crime. Mind you this is only for viiolent offenders.

Why would anyone make that plea? The choice seems to be between asylum+jail and just jail. It sounds like a recipe for putting even more schizophrenics into the general prison population.

lookout123 · 01-06-2005, 05:20 PM

and the problem with that is??? these are folks who broke the rules. you rolls the dice you takes yer chances. i'm not real concerned about a convicted violent criminals mental state. they shouldn't be able to walk the street because they were having problems at the time of their crime.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-06-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

even more schizophrenics into the general prison population.

I should think even if they pleaded not guilty the courts would have an evaluation done and send them to the mental hospital if they're convicted.

Quote:

they should be able to walk the street because they we're having problems at the time of their crime.

No, but the other prisoners shouldn't have to deal with them.

Happy Monkey · 01-06-2005, 07:49 PM

Neither should the guards.

Nightsong · 01-06-2005, 08:21 PM

though I do agree with HAppy Monkey wwhy the hell should prison be pleasent?? I would like to see a return to the old twenties styles where you came out dead or convinced not to go back. I have very VERY little concern for the live or happiness of convicted violent felones.

As for the plea. Think about the cases on the news or in the papers or on the net where some ass lost his temper or got drunk or was just an ass but now is gonna plead insane to get either a reduced sentence or get off. Make them plead guilty. They wont be so quick to use the defense. After looking back at the post and checking with some old note on it the prison time after the hospital is usualy minimum security for the term. BUt if you srcew up or relapse as it were it goes back to hard time. As for why anyone would plead it. See above comment. It isnt about getting to plead it. It is about stopping them from geting a easier time because the claim they were nuts.

404Error · 01-07-2005, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Neither should the guards.

Hear hear! But then that's why baby sitting the dregs of society is such a high paying, rewarding job.

wolf · 01-07-2005, 12:55 AM

There are crazy people who do things because they are crazy ... acting out of their craziness.

For example ... crazy guy sincerely believes that his parents and sibling have been replaced by identical duplicates but are now demons.

Kills parents, wounds brother, who manages to escape to call police. Crazy guy is apprended.

This is a classic Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity.

The guy killed as a direct consequence of his craziness. He did not (probably still does not) understand that he killed his parents. He saved them from the demons. He suffered from a defect of reason so as not to be able to tell right from wrong ... (that's called the M'Naughton Rule) and is the test for insanity in many jurisdictions.

Some jurisdictions also have a notion of Guilty but Mentally Ill. This is often a plea agreement ... the individual pleads guilty, gets mental health treatment, but still serves the term of his sentence. If he's still nuts at the end of it, as far as I am aware the mental health treatment can continue. If the mental illness clears, the jail term stands. I suppose a jury could find for that as well.

NGRIs, since the patient is presumably curable can get released before the criminal penalties would have ended.

Here's another classic Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity. Despite the article being from the Carolinas, the crime happened up near Pottstown. Richard Greist.

He's been petitioning for expansion of privileges, not unlike John Hinkley, Jr.

Troubleshooter · 01-07-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

There are crazy people who do things because they are crazy ... acting out of their craziness.

The only issue I have with this is the extremely high, and you'll agree with me on this I think, lack of medical compliance.

How many retreads do you see every year because the get off of their meds?

wolf · 01-07-2005, 01:06 PM

We have our frequent flyers ...

But it's also true that violence occurs in the mentally ill at a lower rate than the general population.

The cliche of the violent crazy person is well know, and well reinforced through movies and tv shows.

Consider ... a mentally ill man threatens to kill his mother with a sledgehammer.

Did the voices tell him to do it?

No. His mom told him his cell phone service was going to be cut off because he doesn't have the money to pay for it.

Crazy people do things for ordinary criminal motivations too, not as a consequence of their mental illness.

Troubleshooter · 01-07-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

We have our frequent flyers ...

But it's also true that violence occurs in the mentally ill at a lower rate than the general population.

The cliche of the violent crazy person is well know, and well reinforced through movies and tv shows.

Consider ... a mentally ill man threatens to kill his mother with a sledgehammer.

Did the voices tell him to do it?

No. His mom told him his cell phone service was going to be cut off because he doesn't have the money to pay for it.

Crazy people do things for ordinary criminal motivations too, not as a consequence of their mental illness.

I know, I'm just worried about the retreads and the ones known to be violent.

Some of the ones on our locked, male ward were more entertaining than TV, and definitely not violent.

wolf · 01-07-2005, 01:56 PM

Last night I dealt with one of our frequent flyers. It was cold and wet. We don't often see him in the summer months ...

I had a very pleasant, but rambling conversation with him regarding his having spent Christmas with his family, his belief that he had fathered a child on another mental health consumer who was married to someone else at the time, something about Ted Kennedy that I really didn't get, and whether the Book of Mormon represented divine truth or if he though Joseph Smith was hearing voices and seeing things.

He got loud and threatened to kill the doctor who evaluated him (She's not a doc he knows, so he got away with it, and was admitted). He wouldn't hurt a fly. He knows what he has to say so we get paid by the insurance company for his admission. He's really quite thoughtful.

But in studies, he'd probably get classed as "violent mentally ill" because that info is in his chart.

01-06-2005, 05:20 PM	#33
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	and the problem with that is??? these are folks who broke the rules. you rolls the dice you takes yer chances. i'm not real concerned about a convicted violent criminals mental state. they shouldn't be able to walk the street because they were having problems at the time of their crime. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin Last edited by lookout123; 01-06-2005 at 10:29 PM.

01-06-2005, 07:49 PM	#35
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Neither should the guards. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

01-07-2005, 12:55 AM	#38
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	There are crazy people who do things because they are crazy ... acting out of their craziness. For example ... crazy guy sincerely believes that his parents and sibling have been replaced by identical duplicates but are now demons. Kills parents, wounds brother, who manages to escape to call police. Crazy guy is apprended. This is a classic Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity. The guy killed as a direct consequence of his craziness. He did not (probably still does not) understand that he killed his parents. He saved them from the demons. He suffered from a defect of reason so as not to be able to tell right from wrong ... (that's called the M'Naughton Rule) and is the test for insanity in many jurisdictions. Some jurisdictions also have a notion of Guilty but Mentally Ill. This is often a plea agreement ... the individual pleads guilty, gets mental health treatment, but still serves the term of his sentence. If he's still nuts at the end of it, as far as I am aware the mental health treatment can continue. If the mental illness clears, the jail term stands. I suppose a jury could find for that as well. NGRIs, since the patient is presumably curable can get released before the criminal penalties would have ended. Here's another classic Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity. Despite the article being from the Carolinas, the crime happened up near Pottstown. Richard Greist. He's been petitioning for expansion of privileges, not unlike John Hinkley, Jr. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis Last edited by wolf; 01-07-2005 at 01:00 AM.

01-07-2005, 01:06 PM	#40
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	We have our frequent flyers ... But it's also true that violence occurs in the mentally ill at a lower rate than the general population. The cliche of the violent crazy person is well know, and well reinforced through movies and tv shows. Consider ... a mentally ill man threatens to kill his mother with a sledgehammer. Did the voices tell him to do it? No. His mom told him his cell phone service was going to be cut off because he doesn't have the money to pay for it. Crazy people do things for ordinary criminal motivations too, not as a consequence of their mental illness. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

01-07-2005, 01:56 PM	#42
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Last night I dealt with one of our frequent flyers. It was cold and wet. We don't often see him in the summer months ... I had a very pleasant, but rambling conversation with him regarding his having spent Christmas with his family, his belief that he had fathered a child on another mental health consumer who was married to someone else at the time, something about Ted Kennedy that I really didn't get, and whether the Book of Mormon represented divine truth or if he though Joseph Smith was hearing voices and seeing things. He got loud and threatened to kill the doctor who evaluated him (She's not a doc he knows, so he got away with it, and was admitted). He wouldn't hurt a fly. He knows what he has to say so we get paid by the insurance company for his admission. He's really quite thoughtful. But in studies, he'd probably get classed as "violent mentally ill" because that info is in his chart. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

01-06-2005, 04:45 PM	#31
Nightsong Wang Dude Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 177	Here in Sc we have a gentleman who has a bill he has been pushing to make law for some time. I am behind him. You see his brother worked at the power plant. One of his coworkers had been out sick. (under observation). he walked into the locker room that day. and started changing for work. When the gentlemens brother asked him how he was. he reponded fine. When the brother turned to change the other man shot him in the head. The man is in the state hospital and they try to release him every year. His own mother wants him to stay locked up because she says shw knows he is still dangerous. Yet the state says that since the docs say he's sane enough and he is over 18 they should release him. Ofcourse the state also won't prococute the murder since he wasn't in his right mind. The bill would create a new law. One that says you can only plead GUILTY by reason of insanity. The mandatory sentence would include a hospital stay and once "sane" a term of jail keeping with the crime. Mind you this is only for viiolent offenders. SPeaking of which. I am of the opinion that none violent crime is best handled with fines and community service. Or better yet work out servittude to the county state what have you based on crimes. Get some real work outta these bozos. I personally believe crimes against ones self, drinking, drugs and such should not be crimes at all. not UNLESS you cause pain or loss to someone else. If all you hurt is you, that is your own problem. As for the case at hand. Mental illness can be horrible. I often feel sorry for these people. Hell I use to hear voices. I got a little help and learned to deal with it. Now days they only call on holidays but seriously, this woman KILLED. Not a sudden moment of rage or an accident in traffic. She thought it out. SHe may well be sick. She may well think the cat is from Venus. Had she just kidnapped a new born, I would say lock her up and treat her. But she took the life of another. SHe meant to do it too. SIck or not, cull the herd. We put a dog down when it breaks the social contract and kills a person. Often even another dog. THe dog quite probably does not see what he has done as wrong. We still kill him to protect us. Should humans be any different. Frankly most days I would rather have the dog treated and get rid of the people. That last line was pure spite but it suits. It is NOT payback. It is NOT vengence. Hell, it aint even justice. It is simply the END.

01-06-2005, 08:21 PM	#36
Nightsong Wang Dude Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 177	though I do agree with HAppy Monkey wwhy the hell should prison be pleasent?? I would like to see a return to the old twenties styles where you came out dead or convinced not to go back. I have very VERY little concern for the live or happiness of convicted violent felones. As for the plea. Think about the cases on the news or in the papers or on the net where some ass lost his temper or got drunk or was just an ass but now is gonna plead insane to get either a reduced sentence or get off. Make them plead guilty. They wont be so quick to use the defense. After looking back at the post and checking with some old note on it the prison time after the hospital is usualy minimum security for the term. BUt if you srcew up or relapse as it were it goes back to hard time. As for why anyone would plead it. See above comment. It isnt about getting to plead it. It is about stopping them from geting a easier time because the claim they were nuts.

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