God? Faith?

[lookout123]

OC - i'm not saying that it definitely wasn't 6 literal, 24 hour days as we have them now. i am saying that it may have been otherwise. God's time frame, may not be ours. it has only been within recent centuries that we've even had a 12 month calendar. time was marked differently then. for instance - someone in the old testament lived 800 years. 800 years in a 10 month system vs a 12 month system is pretty significant, somewhere around 133 years in our current system of counting.

anyway - i'm not going to argue this, you are free to believe what you want. if it matters to you then by all means, go ahead. it isn't a sticking point for me. i don't are if it was one 24 hour day or one 24000 hour day. i'm thinking that if God can create something from nothing, then time isn't really that big of an issue for Him.

nowhere in the Bible have i seen a verse that says "and God created all the birds and the fish, etc within 2 rotations of the hands on his timex"

i guess what i was trying to get at is that you can't convince someone to have faith - you can only display yours and let them question and decide for themselves. i think too often we get wrapped up in trying to prove things that... anyway - do what works for you.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by TS

1) Why do you presume that there is a spiritual component the needs to be filled?

2) Not everything that occurs in our lives has a reason based on reason. Causality may exist but we may not be able to see it. Why make something up, wrap it in pretty trappings and call it truth if there may just be not other reason than causality?

I have the backing of umpteen jillion world religions, offshoots of such, and...well, don't be silly. If we weren't searching for the spiritual piece of the puzzle, both individually and corporately, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. We would have called it a moot point right around the time we discovered fire.

Finding the meaning behind the obvious causality is where spirituality comes in. If a butterfly flapping its wings causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the people hit by the hurricane still want to know before they die, "Why am I here?"

Why ask why if there is no certainty as to whom to ask?

Address your question "To whom it may concern" and see who answers. My God answers anonymous questions - if the person asking has understanding as his/her motivation, and not "ok, show me what you got".

The obvious question to this is "yeah, but what if I don't believe in a spiritual nature?". I say you do believe in it, but have chosen to ignore it for some reason. It's inbred.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by lookout123

OC - i'm not saying that it definitely wasn't 6 literal, 24 hour days as we have them now. i am saying that it may have been otherwise. God's time frame, may not be ours. it has only been within recent centuries that we've even had a 12 month calendar. time was marked differently then. for instance - someone in the old testament lived 800 years. 800 years in a 10 month system vs a 12 month system is pretty significant, somewhere around 133 years in our current system of counting.

But God DID give us a timeframe:

"And the evening and the morning were the first DAY."

This says nothing about the months, I'm just talking about days...creation days. He gave us a reference then used that reference to tell us how he did it.


edit: If he did take millions of years, why wouldn't he just tell us he took millions of years?? Or say the word "age" or "period of time"? No, he told us how long a day was, and then told us how many days it took and what he created on which day. I have to believe he's not lying to us.

anyway - i'm not going to argue this, you are free to believe what you want. if it matters to you then by all means, go ahead. it isn't a sticking point for me. i don't are if it was one 24 hour day or one 24000 hour day. i'm thinking that if God can create something from nothing, then time isn't really that big of an issue for Him.

No, I don't think it's big issue for him...and it's not an issue for me, but the whole argument is an issue for me, for the reasons I've stated.

nowhere in the Bible have i seen a verse that says "and God created all the birds and the fish, etc within 2 rotations of the hands on his timex"

see above....

i guess what i was trying to get at is that you can't convince someone to have faith - you can only display yours and let them question and decide for themselves. i think too often we get wrapped up in trying to prove things that... anyway - do what works for you.

I agree. I can't give my faith to anyone. All I can do is say something or argue a point and hope that maybe it will cause them to think about that for a second, and maybe look a little deeper into it for themselves. Most of the time that doesn't happen, but what if, just one time, it did?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I have the backing of umpteen jillion world religions, offshoots of such, and...well, don't be silly. If we weren't searching for the spiritual piece of the puzzle, both individually and corporately, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. We would have called it a moot point right around the time we discovered fire.

Finding the meaning behind the obvious causality is where spirituality comes in. If a butterfly flapping its wings causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the people hit by the hurricane still want to know before they die, "Why am I here?"


The obvious question to this is "yeah, but what if I don't believe in a spiritual nature?". I say you do believe in it, but have chosen to ignore it for some reason. It's inbred.

You miss my point. Just because there is a question doesn't mean that there is an answer. A cognitive need is not necessarily derived from the existence of some ephemeral entity.

And leave my family out of this.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Address your question "To whom it may concern" and see who answers. My God answers anonymous questions - if the person asking has understanding as his/her motivation, and not "ok, show me what you got".

But you have yet to show any of these answers and how they differ from your run-of-the-mill hallucination.

[mrnoodle]

I got your point, and thought I answered it. Actually, the fact that we ask the question on such a global scale (independent of society, race, language, organized religion, or geography) is an indication that "something's out there." The human race is and always has been longing to close our separation from God. Thanks, Adam n Eve.
How we go about bridging the gap is where religion comes in.

uh oh, I feel a metaphor coming on. I'll fight the urge.

But anyway, I do think the existence of a question proves that there must be an answer. When the question is preprogrammed into us, particularly.

As to the second question, I can't show you that. Only God can show you that. And he won't do it unless you ask (w/open heart, etc.) I repeat, no man or woman can "show" you God on a piece of paper. He walked among us for 33 years and offered proof after proof, and people still turned their backs.

I have a pic of him though. Younger guy, beard, wears a robe. If he came back down today, I think he'd probably blend a little better, but that was the thing back then.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...

There's a book I just picked up called "Why God Won't Go Away" and it looks to be pretty interesting. It's mostly about the physiology of the religious experience.

As to everyone asking why, wouldn't a similarity of brain structure make that possible as well, since we all have brains? (I know, I know, stick to evidence. But brains have been proven to exist, it's their use that is in question.)

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

There's a book I just picked up called "Why God Won't Go Away" and it looks to be pretty interesting. It's mostly about the physiology of the religious experience

This is interesting. What exactly is a "religious experience"?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

This is interesting. What exactly is a "religious experience"?

I don't have the book with me. I'll quote it when I get home this evening. The guy(s) doing the book appear to lean towards the spiritual side so it's unlikely to be a bashing book.

Edit:

http://www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?...le&titleID=788

From the Book Jacket:

Why have we humans always longed to connect with something larger than ourselves? Why does consciousness inevitably involve us in a spiritual quest? Why, in short, won't God go away? Theologians, philosophers, and psychologists have debated this question through the ages, arriving at a range of contradictory and ultimately unprovable answers. But in this brilliant, groundbreaking new book, researchers Andrew Newberg and Eugene d'Aquili offer an explanation that is at once profoundly simple and scientifically precise: the religious impulse is rooted in the biology of the brain.

Newberg and d'Aquili base this revolutionary conclusion on a long-term investigation of brain function and behavior as well as studies they conducted using high-tech imaging techniques to examine the brains of meditating Buddhists and Franciscan nuns at prayer. What they discovered was that intensely focused spiritual contemplation triggers an alteration in the activity of the brain that leads us to perceive transcendent religious experiences as solid and tangibly real. In other words, the sensation that Buddhists call "oneness with the universe" and the Franciscans attribute to the palpable presence of God is not a delusion or a manifestation of wishful thinking but rather a chain of neurological events that can be objectively observed, recorded, and actually photographed.

The inescapable conclusion is that God is hard-wired into the human brain.

In Why God Won't Go Away, Newberg and d'Aquili document their pioneering explorations in the field of neurotheology, an emerging discipline dedicated to understanding the complex relationship between spirituality and the brain. Along the way, they delve into such essential questions as whether humans are biologically compelled to make myths; what is the evolutionary connection between religious ecstasy and sexual orgasm; what do Near Death Experiences reveal about the nature of spiritual phenomena; and how does ritual create its own neurological environment. As their journey unfolds, Newberg and d'Aquili realize that a single, overarching question lies at the heart of their pursuit: Is religion merely a product of biology or has the human brain been mysteriously endowed with the unique capacity to reach and know God?

Blending cutting-edge science with illuminating insights into the nature of consciousness and spirituality, Why God Won't Go Away bridges faith and reason, mysticism and empirical data. The neurological basis of how the brain identifies the "real" is nothing short of miraculous. This fascinating, eye-opening book dares to explore both the miracle and the biology of our enduring relationship with God.

[OnyxCougar]

interesting. let me know how it turns out.

[mrnoodle]

If that's your bag

I'm sure there is a neurological component associated with religious experiences. The harder sell for me is that the brain causes religious experience rather than reacts to it.

If a tree lands on your head, your brain says "Ow." The tree landing on the head was an independent event, however.

[Troubleshooter]

A better way of sating may be that religion is a side effect of the brain stucture that produced "feel good" for certain behaviors that enhanced survival.

Spatial disconnect (OOBE), endorphins, seratonin, whatever...

[LabRat]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

However, my study of the bible (including it's veracity) and other sources, along with my intellect, have shown me that there is compatibility with my beliefs as a witch and Christian beliefs, and harmony with what I have seen and experienced firsthand and those documents....Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.

Ahhh, maybe this would help me a lot. I never took a religion class in college, and have often wished I had. Do you (or anyone reading this thread!!) have any recommendations of books or other resources (I only have the web at work, and I already am pushing it as often as I am HERE ) that kind of give a basic background to different religions etc.? THANKS!

[LabRat]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I'm sure there is a neurological component associated with religious experiences. The harder sell for me is that the brain causes religious experience rather than reacts to it.

If a tree lands on your head, your brain says "Ow." The tree landing on the head was an independent event, however.

Hoo Boy, this is a topic for a whole 'nother thread... Your brain can say 'ow' even if a tree never touches you. In fact, a phantom pain in amputated limbs is a good real life example of this. So are the hallucinations of scitzophrenics (whoa, murdered the spelling on that one, there should be an h in there somewhere, i know it) and persons on other illegal drugs. I've seen a bi-polar person in a state of mania with hallucinations who believed she was in direct communication with God (and my dead father), and it was an eye opening experience.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by LabRat

Ahhh, maybe this would help me a lot. I never took a religion class in college, and have often wished I had. Do you (or anyone reading this thread!!) have any recommendations of books or other resources (I only have the web at work, and I already am pushing it as often as I am HERE ) that kind of give a basic background to different religions etc.? THANKS!

Start by reading the holy books themselves. I personally have read the Koran, the Bible, the Talmud (that is a LONG read), the Witches Bible, lots of books by Scott Cunningham, and various other texts like the Book of the Dead. Most of these are available online, in e-format and amazon.com.

There are compendiums of other philosophies (Eastern and African) that you can get, usually at the library. They will give you titles of various holy books of those beliefs and you're off again!

I'm one of those people that buys my books because I make notes in the margins.

Before I left Vegas, I had a HUGE 8 foot oak bookshelf filled (sometimes doubled up) with books. Left most of them behind when I moved to NC, tho, or I would mail some to you. The rest I packed up and took to my mom's in CA. I'll get out there to pick them up one day...

But yeah. Read the books for yourself, don't just take someone's word for it. There's something to be said for experiencing the scriptures of various cultures for yourself.

For a real basic overview, you can go to beliefnet.org, which has many many many different religious forums and information.

[DanaC]

Hmm....why dont i believe in God? Well .....simply put I looked at the available evidence and came to the conclusion that there is no God....having reached that conclusion I don't see a reason to arttificially insert God into my worldview. To me God, Gods , religion and faith are all just ideas which humanity has come up with to deal with questions which science had not yet found answers to. As far as I am concerned science can now make better answers than the bible ever could and leaves little or no room for the supernatural.

Mr Noodle I wasnt being aggressive I was being humourous......for me the whole idea of God, Jesus, Shiva, Jehova and zeus all come under the same category as the tooth fairy....that is to say, a pleasant fiction with which we raise our children.
For me, religion is simply a way of seeking comfort , but having decided that there is no God ( I cannot emphasise that point enough....I dont simply "not believe in God, rather I "know" there is no God, in much the same way as a Christian "knows" there is one.) it seems a hollow comfort at best.

I really do think Marx's view of religion as the opiate of the masses holds true. I choose not to delude myself with that opiate