Palestinians and "desperation" - Page 3

Undertoad · 05-16-2002, 04:01 PM

Three weeks ago Egypt said they would declare war on Israel if the other Arab nations would give them $100B:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...441265555.html

05-16-2002, 04:08 PM

That would be one of the more idiotic things Egypt could do at this time. They would get the smack down so badly it wouldn't be funny. And they know this. It seems to me as though they just have a few loud-mouthed politicians.

I would like to see someone call their bluff and offer up $100B on the condition that they waged war on Israel.

StrngTerrapin · 05-16-2002, 04:36 PM

Egypt is in a bit of a precarius position. They are one of the only countries bordering Israel that stands a hair whim of a chance of over-running the IDF upon a surprise Egyption invasion. But that aside, Egypt has already lost a few wars it had a hand in starting. The Siani penninsula is a wastelan dof nothing-ness. Israel tryly had no resaon to remain there. If anything, it was a strain on the IDF to remain positioned so far from Israel proper. Their withdrawl was for nothing but strategic military reasons, not political. And no one can say that Egypt's opinion and conduct towards Israel got much better since their withdrawl. They still produce extremeists like there is no end, their government, still hugely anti-semestic, sponsors anti-jew AND anti israel AND anti US rallies in the streets. Egypt is on the same level as every other Middle Eastern country...still ass backwards in their society, still repressive..and still anti Israel and anti Jew.

Yelof · 05-16-2002, 05:12 PM

OK skipping some sort of land for peace deal, or any attempt to open dialog to arrive at any sort of final settlement as there does not seem to be many here open to such suggestions.

Anyone care to justify the Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank? The existance of which blight the everyday life of the Palestinians living there..I could dig up links about how settler roads split comunities, about how small groups of religously inspired settlers require large military protection..but what is the point if you wanted you could find them yourself.

In case the charge of irrelevence is thrown at me again, pray tell what is relevent to a thread entitled "Palestinians and "desperation" " and concerning just what it is that motivates hate sufficient to blow yourself up to kill innocents.

elSicomoro · 05-16-2002, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yelof
Anyone care to justify the Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank?

Well, the Israeli government would be happy to justify it for you. They call the occupied lands "disputed territories," and say they have just as much right to be there as the Palestinians.

Now, could I personally justify them? No. From my standpoint, Gaza and the West Bank are lands taken during hostile action from Egyptian and Jordanian (respectively) administration. Israel should have never built settlements upon them.

StrngTerrapin · 05-16-2002, 07:03 PM

I agree with the fact that the Israeli settlements really shouldn't be there. While I don't know if its because the Israeli government had no right (after all, it was captured land, belonging to them)...I think they shouldnt build them because it just makes it easy for the terrorists to attack them. An dit unfortunately draws away the IDF from tasks better suited then protecting a settlement. But...it might not be an issue if a group of a couple of hundred people people, made up of only families with children, weren't the intended targets of Palestinian gunmen who infiltrate the settlement to kill some young girls and their mothers and fathers. Has the IDF killed innocent Palestinians? No doubt. Is it regretted? Yes it is. But the IDF's goal is to AVOID civilian casualties. When those gunmen sneak into those settlements...they intend to kill as many innocent people as possible.

05-16-2002, 08:14 PM

The problem with many of the settlers is that they are right-wing extremist Jews, just as there are left-wing extremist Palestinians. I'm not saying that this is true of all of them; but it certainly has been true for a majority of them <b>from what I have read</b>. They feel that they have a God-given right to be in the West Bank, and they aren't going to let a bunch of filthy sand niggers take that away from them. Look, for example, at how much Baruch Goldstein is celebrated. Many Israeli settlers will label him as a "hero" - one that killed 29 innocent Palestinians.

The settlers are generally of the far-right type and, truth be told, I have less sympathy for them than I do those who actually live within Israel and are hurt by terrorism. Their self-righteousness makes it hard for me to feel sorry for them.

Hubris Boy · 05-16-2002, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
The problem with many of the settlers is that they are right-wing extremist Jews, just as there are left-wing extremist Palestinians. I'm not saying that this is true of all of them; but it certainly has been true for a majority of them <b>from what I have read</b>.

I thought so too, until recently. Turns out to be another media myth.

While some of the 'settlers" really are the foaming-at-the-mouth Zionist types, the majority of them are there because it's a good deal. A lot of them are recent immigrants of with modest financial resources. The Israeli government subsidized the construction of their homes- up to 60% to 80% in some cases.

I was surprised. I'd always had the same image in my mind that Dave described... the Torah-totin', Galil-waving squatter. Guess I was wrong.

jaguar · 05-17-2002, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Yet, have we seen any stoppage of attacks on the northern frontier? The guerillas continue to operate effectively in the area, firing rockets on troops and civilians in northern Israel, kidnapping Israeli troops, etc. Just goes to point that just because the IDF might pull out of the terrorites gained in the 1967 war, the terrorism will not halt. They might give a little, but it will never be enough.

Hezboilah's recent attacks is in reposnce to IDF actions in the west bank and gaza.

but in reality poeple, and any here acutally honestly tell me if someone stole thier house, gave them a bit of the yard, occasionalyl run a backhoe though it, then spat on them they wouldn't get rather miffed?

05-17-2002, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
Hezboilah's recent attacks is in reposnce to IDF actions in the west bank and gaza.

but in reality poeple, and any here acutally honestly tell me if someone stole thier house, gave them a bit of the yard, occasionalyl run a backhoe though it, then spat on them they wouldn't get rather miffed?

It turns out that your scenario hasn't happened to MOST people in the West Bank and Gaza, and even if it had, it doesn't legitimize the murder of civilians.

MaggieL · 05-17-2002, 11:37 AM

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/iltoc.html

has some fascinating historical background on how the Middle East got to how it is today.

elSicomoro · 05-17-2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
The extremists would like us ALL dead. And that, my friends, is the Big Picture.

Thank you A. Whitney Brown.

Undertoad · 05-17-2002, 04:22 PM

Hee hee! Good catch!

jaguar · 05-17-2002, 05:49 PM

Quote:

It turns out that your scenario hasn't happened to MOST people in the West Bank and Gaza, and even if it had, it doesn't legitimize the murder of civilians.

?!
YOu think the entire population used to live in less than 1/5th of the country? There is a palastinian family who has the deeds to the land the kessnet(in too much of a hurry to google the spelling) is buiilt on.

Undertoad · 05-17-2002, 09:24 PM

Deeds are written by governments. With what government do they have the deed?

05-16-2002, 04:36 PM	#33
StrngTerrapin Jotter of Notes Join Date: May 2002 Location: Arizona and Maryland Posts: 11	Arab position Egypt is in a bit of a precarius position. They are one of the only countries bordering Israel that stands a hair whim of a chance of over-running the IDF upon a surprise Egyption invasion. But that aside, Egypt has already lost a few wars it had a hand in starting. The Siani penninsula is a wastelan dof nothing-ness. Israel tryly had no resaon to remain there. If anything, it was a strain on the IDF to remain positioned so far from Israel proper. Their withdrawl was for nothing but strategic military reasons, not political. And no one can say that Egypt's opinion and conduct towards Israel got much better since their withdrawl. They still produce extremeists like there is no end, their government, still hugely anti-semestic, sponsors anti-jew AND anti israel AND anti US rallies in the streets. Egypt is on the same level as every other Middle Eastern country...still ass backwards in their society, still repressive..and still anti Israel and anti Jew.

05-16-2002, 07:03 PM	#36
StrngTerrapin Jotter of Notes Join Date: May 2002 Location: Arizona and Maryland Posts: 11	Settlements I agree with the fact that the Israeli settlements really shouldn't be there. While I don't know if its because the Israeli government had no right (after all, it was captured land, belonging to them)...I think they shouldnt build them because it just makes it easy for the terrorists to attack them. An dit unfortunately draws away the IDF from tasks better suited then protecting a settlement. But...it might not be an issue if a group of a couple of hundred people people, made up of only families with children, weren't the intended targets of Palestinian gunmen who infiltrate the settlement to kill some young girls and their mothers and fathers. Has the IDF killed innocent Palestinians? No doubt. Is it regretted? Yes it is. But the IDF's goal is to AVOID civilian casualties. When those gunmen sneak into those settlements...they intend to kill as many innocent people as possible.

05-17-2002, 11:37 AM	#41
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/iltoc.html has some fascinating historical background on how the Middle East got to how it is today. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

05-16-2002, 04:01 PM	#31
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Three weeks ago Egypt said they would declare war on Israel if the other Arab nations would give them $100B: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...441265555.html

05-16-2002, 04:08 PM	#32
dave Guest Posts: n/a	That would be one of the more idiotic things Egypt could do at this time. They would get the smack down so badly it wouldn't be funny. And they know this. It seems to me as though they just have a few loud-mouthed politicians. I would like to see someone call their bluff and offer up $100B on the condition that they waged war on Israel.

05-16-2002, 05:12 PM	#34
Yelof neither here nor there Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 179	OK skipping some sort of land for peace deal, or any attempt to open dialog to arrive at any sort of final settlement as there does not seem to be many here open to such suggestions. Anyone care to justify the Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank? The existance of which blight the everyday life of the Palestinians living there..I could dig up links about how settler roads split comunities, about how small groups of religously inspired settlers require large military protection..but what is the point if you wanted you could find them yourself. In case the charge of irrelevence is thrown at me again, pray tell what is relevent to a thread entitled "Palestinians and "desperation" " and concerning just what it is that motivates hate sufficient to blow yourself up to kill innocents.

05-16-2002, 08:14 PM	#37
dave Guest Posts: n/a	The problem with many of the settlers is that they are right-wing extremist Jews, just as there are left-wing extremist Palestinians. I'm not saying that this is true of all of them; but it certainly has been true for a majority of them <b>from what I have read</b>. They feel that they have a God-given right to be in the West Bank, and they aren't going to let a bunch of filthy sand niggers take that away from them. Look, for example, at how much Baruch Goldstein is celebrated. Many Israeli settlers will label him as a "hero" - one that killed 29 innocent Palestinians. The settlers are generally of the far-right type and, truth be told, I have less sympathy for them than I do those who actually live within Israel and are hurt by terrorism. Their self-righteousness makes it hard for me to feel sorry for them.

05-17-2002, 04:22 PM	#43
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Hee hee! Good catch!

05-17-2002, 09:24 PM	#45
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Deeds are written by governments. With what government do they have the deed?

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