American Wahabbis and the Ten Commandments

[OnyxCougar]

convincing the founding fathers to choose a secular form of government clearly separating church and state
.........
blur the boundaries between church and state

We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty, to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

(Typed entirely from memory, thank you schoolhouse rock.)

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

(On every coin in the country) In God We Trust

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: One Nation Under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


Separation of church and state my ass. This country was founded on a belief in a creator god and is is ALL of our major documents and mottos.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their* Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

You missed with your emphasis there, thought I'd tighten in up for you a little bit.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: One Nation Under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Published in 1891, the original states, 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

'To' was added in 1892.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

This country was founded on a belief in a creator god and is is ALL of our major documents and mottos.

Which in no way takes away from the idea that others should be able to worship, or not, as their beliefs dictate. The governmental imprimatur, as alluded to in your above statement is what is used as a hammer on people of alternative, or no, religion.

*to possibly include Vishnu, Odin, Marduk, etc., etc....

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

You missed with your emphasis there, thought I'd tighten in up for you a little bit.

No, the emphasis was exactly where I wanted it, thanks. Namely, in the word CREATOR, meaning the founding fathers believed in a Creator God.

Published in 1891, the original states, 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

'To' was added in 1892.

So? It's still in there, isn't it?

Which in no way takes away from the idea that others should be able to worship, or not, as their beliefs dictate.

I absolutely agree. That's what this country was founded on.

The governmental imprimatur, as alluded to in your above statement is what is used as a hammer on people of alternative, or no, religion.

I don't care who you worship or IF you worship. That was not the point of my post. Since this is one of those cases I was obtuse, let me try to clarify my point:

The founding documents of this country have not one thing to do with separation of church and state, or else they would not be worded as they are. (No one has mentioned the fact that God is on all our money yet....)

I have a problem with the author (of the quoted first post)s repeated use of the separation of church and state, as if it was a mandate from the founding of this country that there will be no mix of the two, when obviously that's not the case.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

(No one has mentioned the fact that God is on all our money yet....)

I did. That (and the pledge) was added later, so it says nothing about how the country was founded, just that there was a period of self-righteousness later on.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Published in 1891, the original states, 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Here are two more that were added later on - hardly evidence one way or the other for "This country was founded on a belief in a creator god ".

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I did. That (and the pledge) was added later, so it says nothing about how the country was founded, just that there was a period of self-righteousness later on.

And then

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

Hopefully she won't bring up the pledge and coins anymore with regard to the founding of the country...

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Hopefully...

*tip of my hat*

Thank you sir.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

(On every coin in the country) In God We Trust

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: One Nation Under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Here are two more that were added later on - hardly evidence one way or the other for "This country was founded on a belief in a creator god ".

And the term "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God", given the attitude of the time, is remarkably ambivalent on the subject of God. Little more than lip service, really.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

Nature's God...that's Cerrunos, right?