American Wahabbis and the Ten Commandments - Page 2

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 12:18 PM

I was attempting to show that the popular depiction of the ten commandments is indeed an iconic image, recognizable even when it is small enough for the words to be illegible. If the words are more important than the icon, you could just as easily engrave them on an obelisk, or emboss them on hide.

Beestie · 03-10-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I was attempting to show that the popular depiction of the ten commandments is indeed an iconic image, recognizable even when it is small enough for the words to be illegible. If the words are more important than the icon, you could just as easily engrave them on an obelisk, or emboss them on hide.

And the words, engraved in an obelisk or branded on cowhide, are still words - not a representation of something other than God or his word. The ten commandments are not "objects of worship" like the classic icon of a golden calf. The calf itself is being worshipped whereas the words merely refer back to God himself.

You are mixing the definition of icon in the artistic sense with the definition in a religious sense. Purposefully, I think.

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 12:45 PM

Well, I'm not going to argue scripture. I was just noting that there most certainly was such thing as an image of the ten commandments separate from the word content, and recognizable even when the "words" are nothing more than a wiggly line per commandment.

jaguar · 03-10-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

You can do way better than that, can't you??

Oh I could but there are others here who know the origins, history and interpretations of US docs, constitutional history & figures involved far better than I do, I'll leave them to it. However I seem to remember something about a treaty with Tripoli that made the feelings of the founding fathers rather clearer than some would like. I would furthermore add that the inclusion of an amendment to me at least makes it very clear while some or all may have been religious men they felt that religion should not extend into government. References to god alone to not usurp that principle. The argument for the commandments seems to rest in a similarly warped way to the creationist one - that because something can't be ruled out or isn't entirely clear that given that inch, you should be allowed to take a mile.

OnyxCougar · 03-10-2005, 01:37 PM

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

Beestie · 03-10-2005, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

Its always been my understanding that separation of church and state was meant to prevent the affiliation with or endorsement of any particular religion by the government. Belief in God, in and of itself, is not a religion, imho.

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

The pledge? The coins?

The first was done to show we weren't commies, and the second was in response to increased religious fervor in the Civil War, which is more of an argument against war than for religion.

OnyxCougar · 03-10-2005, 02:28 PM

That's great, what about the rest of it?

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 02:49 PM

The rest of it goes out of its way to avoid Christian terms.

Elspode · 03-10-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

Nature's God...that's Cerrunos, right?

dar512 · 03-10-2005, 03:01 PM

It is certain that the Judeo-Christian ethic has affected western civilisation in many ways. Certainly it has affected the set of laws we now have.

On the other hand, "When religion and politics ride in the same cart...". (Dang can't remember the rest of the quote. Herbert or Heinlein, I think.)

I'm Catholic. How about we put a statue of Mary in the state capitols? See the kind of trouble this can lead to?

I'd rather keep religion and politics separate.

One more 'however'. I do vote based on my morality.

Undertoad · 03-10-2005, 03:23 PM

The pledge and coins are irrelevant. The founding document of the country and the document that determines how things operate is the Constitution. The establishment clause tells us that it has no official religion. The words of Jefferson and Washington on the matter are clear. Here's what Washington wrote, just after the Constitution was accepted, to a bunch of Jews in RI who were worried about the nature of the new country, that it may shut them out like they had been before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gen. Geo Washington in 1790

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

He spoke OF religion, but wanted to ensure that the nation would never be bigoted, never promote persecution.

Troubleshooter · 03-10-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins?

If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins?

"God" is NOWHERE in the Constitution. (Written by the founding fathers, to be known as ODWG from now on.)

The pledge was written without any referrence to God by a PREACHER in 1892. See a previous post with the writer's words. Again.

Here is a greenback, the first national currency, I'm still looking for the word "God".

jaguar · 03-10-2005, 05:05 PM

see, i told you other people who know their shit better than me would chime in

Troubleshooter · 03-10-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

see, i told you other people who know their shit better than me would chime in

I'm glad somebody noticed. If OC didn't actually quote me every now and then I'd think she had me on ignore.

03-10-2005, 12:18 PM	#16
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I was attempting to show that the popular depiction of the ten commandments is indeed an iconic image, recognizable even when it is small enough for the words to be illegible. If the words are more important than the icon, you could just as easily engrave them on an obelisk, or emboss them on hide. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2005, 12:45 PM	#18
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Well, I'm not going to argue scripture. I was just noting that there most certainly was such thing as an image of the ten commandments separate from the word content, and recognizable even when the "words" are nothing more than a wiggly line per commandment. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2005, 01:37 PM	#20
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	And what then, do you make of the repeated inclusion of the idea of a creator in nearly all of the big US documents and coins? If they really wanted complete and utter separation of religion and government, why put it in all those documents? The pledge? The coins? __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-10-2005, 02:28 PM	#23
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	That's great, what about the rest of it? __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-10-2005, 02:49 PM	#24
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	The rest of it goes out of its way to avoid Christian terms. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2005, 03:01 PM	#26
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	It is certain that the Judeo-Christian ethic has affected western civilisation in many ways. Certainly it has affected the set of laws we now have. On the other hand, "When religion and politics ride in the same cart...". (Dang can't remember the rest of the quote. Herbert or Heinlein, I think.) I'm Catholic. How about we put a statue of Mary in the state capitols? See the kind of trouble this can lead to? I'd rather keep religion and politics separate. One more 'however'. I do vote based on my morality. __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

03-10-2005, 05:05 PM	#29
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	see, i told you other people who know their shit better than me would chime in __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

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