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[Troubleshooter]

Two words...

Lost in the translation...

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Pie

In most places, learning 2-3 languages is the norm for literate individuals. Somehow, in the US, knowing more than the required one language is considered a bad thing -- somehow disloyal.

That's not the case at all. I haven't met one person that thinks learning a second or third or more languages is a bad thing.

My problem is that fact that people live in a country whose Primary Language is English, yet they don't take the time to learn it. It *should not* be my responsibility to pay for translators in civic departments (including health and welfare divisions) and 23 languages in voting booths, and the cost of printing things in multiple languages.

It has nothing to do with me knowing or not knowing another language. It has *everything* to do with an individual who resides in this country should have a functioning level of competency in the language used by the government.

The fact that we *do* have information and forms available in several languages is a courtesy and should not be confused with obligation.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

--snip--
My problem is that fact that people live in a country whose Primary Language is English, yet they don't take the time to learn it. It *should not* be my responsibility to pay for translators in civic departments (including health and welfare divisions) and 23 languages in voting booths, and the cost of printing things in multiple languages.

It has nothing to do with me knowing or not knowing another language. It has *everything* to do with an individual who resides in this country should have a functioning level of competency in the language used by the government.

The fact that we *do* have information and forms available in several languages is a courtesy and should not be confused with obligation.

Look, we live in a democracy and not all vote, we live in country under the rule of law and we have criminals...

Do you think making English "the Law" will make things better? Should we put speed bumps on the freeway to keep the speeders in check? Should all buildings be steel or brick to foil the arsonists?

And why even bother with all the different ways we get our information? What a waste! Let's just have the gov't print up the ballots and the voter instructions and everything we need to know (in english) and just shitcan the rest. That'll show da bums!

[warch]

My problem is that fact that people live in a country whose Primary Language is English, yet they don't take the time to learn it.

Who are these hoards of slackers you have a problem with? I see tons of English language learners each week of all levels. Might there be other reasons besides time that their fluency is lacking? Does that matter to you? Should we just leave them ill informed? Would that impact us negatively? Should we help them at all? What about helping fund English classes? Is that out, too? I think translational, educational help is a courtesy and in all of our best interests. If you want participatory goverment you need to facilitate participation. You need to share information and communicate clearly.

Remind me: What public education services do your children, those with special needs receive? Are they tax funded by the likes of me- someone with no children at all? I assume that your kids need government funded services and arent just slackers. I dont view those expenses as a courtesy. I actually believe that investing in the access to and education of your kids is a good, financial and ethical investment on my part. I think it will make them productive and better citizens. And if your kids need communication assistance to participate as better citizens, I would think that a good investment , too.

There are so many other legitimate areas of waste in government spending of my money. What about the 72 milllion dollar pay bonus we just gave Brown and Root, inc. AKA Halliburton the non bid contractor who is still under investigation for shady accounting, overcharging? Where is that outrage?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by warch

My problem is that fact that people live in a country whose Primary Language is English, yet they don't take the time to learn it.

Who are these hoards of slackers you have a problem with? I see tons of English language learners each week of all levels. Might there be other reasons besides time that their fluency is lacking? Does that matter to you? Should we just leave them ill informed? Would that impact us negatively? Should we help them at all? What about helping fund English classes? Is that out, too? I think translational, educational help is a courtesy and in all of our best interests. If you want participatory goverment you need to facilitate participation. You need to share information and communicate clearly.

Remind me: What public education services do your children, those with special needs receive? Are they tax funded by the likes of me- someone with no children at all? I assume that your kids need government funded services and arent just slackers. I dont view those expenses as a courtesy. I actually believe that investing in the access to and education of your kids is a good, financial and ethical investment on my part. I think it will make them productive and better citizens. And if your kids need communication assistance to participate as better citizens, I would think that a good investment , too.

There are so many other legitimate areas of waste in government spending of my money. What about the 72 milllion dollar pay bonus we just gave Brown and Root, inc. AKA Halliburton the non bid contractor who is still under investigation for shady accounting, overcharging? Where is that outrage?

I was gonna remove my cap in respect and clap politely, but I think I'll just say FUCKIN' A!!

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by warch

Who are these hoards of slackers you have a problem with? I see tons of English language learners each week of all levels. Might there be other reasons besides time that their fluency is lacking? Does that matter to you? Should we just leave them ill informed? Would that impact us negatively? Should we help them at all? What about helping fund English classes? Is that out, too? I think translational, educational help is a courtesy and in all of our best interests. If you want participatory goverment you need to facilitate participation. You need to share information and communicate clearly.

Remind me: What public education services do your children, those with special needs receive? Are they tax funded by the likes of me- someone with no children at all? I assume that your kids need government funded services and arent just slackers. I dont view those expenses as a courtesy. I actually believe that investing in the access to and education of your kids is a good, financial and ethical investment on my part. I think it will make them productive and better citizens. And if your kids need communication assistance to participate as better citizens, I would think that a good investment , too.

There are so many other legitimate areas of waste in government spending of my money. What about the 72 milllion dollar pay bonus we just gave Brown and Root, inc. AKA Halliburton the non bid contractor who is still under investigation for shady accounting, overcharging? Where is that outrage?

To risk sounding like a 'Me Too' I have to echo BigV and say "Right fucking on"

[xoxoxoBruce]

There are so many other legitimate areas of waste in government spending of my money. What about the 72 milllion dollar pay bonus we just gave Brown and Root, inc. AKA Halliburton the non bid contractor who is still under investigation for shady accounting, overcharging? Where is that outrage?

Brown & Root (Halliburton) is different...they're doing God's work for W. Or is that W's work for God? Whatever.

As for 23 translations for CA voters, it's the voters duty to know what they're voting on before they ever get to the polls. They should know what proposition xx is about and whether they are yay or nay before election day. Providing a translation of a couple of sentences and expecting them to make informed choices is silly....hell, give them a dart and show them the board....the results are the same.

[Philosopher]

Please forgive my weighing in on the subject, but I am a first generation immigrant who came here when I was 5 years old along with my 3 year old sister, and our parents.

A foreign language is a double edged sword. It can be used to introduce your American neighbors to the finer contributions of your former culture to Humanity, and it can be used to make them feel uncomfortable by locking them out of a conversation in your native tongue.

The best way to discern when you are using one blade or the other is to imagine yourself a guest in another person's house. What would you do? Would it be polite to engage only one of their family's members just because they speak your language and it feels good to you to do so? What about the other ones, left standing there with nothing to say? That is rude. It should not be done. Mind your manners.

On the other hand, if you've been invited to a Scottish man's house, and he is introducing you to haggis, it is perfectly proper to tell him of a cajun dish called "paunce", which is very similar, and from there it makes for an interesting conversation between two persons, one of scottish, and another of french extraction, as to the many ties between the scots and the french, particularly during the Reformation and times thereafter. This is a good thing.

It is altogether a different thing for the french person to stand up, announce to the people in the house that this is a shameful scottish ripoff, and proceed to question the scotsman's ownership and stewardship of the house and proceed to rearrange the furniture.

An immigrant such as myself, is here by the grace and generosity of the culture that admits him. He is a guest who is being admitted into the family. The family has a right to its own culture. By accepting foreigners into the family, it does not abridge that right. It is saying to the immigrant, come, be one of us, learn our language and our ways, be family. And by all means, bring us the best of where you came from, treat us to your food, your celebrations, your dance and music, your art, and your literature. But NEVER insult or degrade our culture and nation. Never express ingratitude to your hosts. They have paid you their highest compliment, and you are honor bound to respect that.

Does that mean that you cannot criticize American culture? Of course not. But what it does mean is that you do not stand outside of it lobbing stones at it. No, you criticize it (and praise it) like a family member would. Not for what benefits your former country, or your former culture, but strictly from the point of view of what benefits your new country, America, the country you swore to place above all others when you took the oath. Doing anything else betrays that oath.

That oath binds your children as well. I teach my children to learn and love this culture transmitted through its language and I also encourage them to learn about the one I came from. But I make no bones about what I would think if any of them were so much as to lift a hand against this country. They would be betraying me just as much as they'd be betraying America.

No immigrant ethnic group has a right to demand this country spend its blood and treasure in the interest of it's former nationality. Not Israel, Cuba, Ireland, China, Mexico, Japan, whatever. Once you take the oath, that allegiance is over. Permanently. There may be times where those interests coincide, but the minute they don't, consistent with respecting established treaties, we should stop.

All that said, it is a wonderful thing to speak more than one language. It increases your intelligence and general culture. It allows you to be a friendly American face to another part of the world and its tourists to our own. It allows your children and your children's children to speak the language they'll need to contribute to the society that has given them a home.

Finally, from a practical standpoint, efficiency demands that one language be shared among all immigrants to this country. It would bring us to our knees as a nation if in the misnomer of diversity, we were to have to print everything in many languages. This is just common sense.

When an immigrant comes to live here he must learn the language. By all means, speak what you want to whoever you want, but show some basic manners. To be a part of the American family you must learn its customs and that can only be done in English. Any speaker of two or more languages will tell you that even in the closest of translations, there are many shadings and subtexts of words that don't translate properly. English is a must. Professionally and socially. You hamstring yourself and your progeny otherwise.

Yes, free classes should be given for this. It is in all our best interests. Personally, I believe those free classes should be given in public schools in the evening by previous immigrants from that same group. Think of it as a public service akin to military service. A small price to pay for the boon of American citizenship. Set up a vetting board for each language composed of English-fluent former teachers in that groups language, to pick the volunteers. Standardize the textbook and the course days so anyone can step in and teach any class. Stagger the classes so if any student misses a few classes, they can just pick up where they left off in another school. Standardize a minimum competency test to be taken at the end of 2 years. If the person fails, they have 6 months to retake it. If they fail again, they are sent back to their former country (unless fear of death is an issue) until they can pass it by showing up at an immigration office at the border and taking it again.

I'm sorry. If you can't be bothered to learn the language, you are showing severe disrespect to your hosts and the offer being made to you. There are others dying to get here who can. Go home and rethink what it means to apply for citizenship in another country.

And that, like the man said, is telling it the way I see it. And remember, I'm an immigrant myself, from a non-English speaking culture. One I'm very proud of culturally, but not politically.

[Undertoad]

Welcome, Philosopher, in every sense of that word. Great first post.

Personally, I believe those free classes should be given in public schools in the evening by previous immigrants from that same group. Think of it as a public service akin to military service. A small price to pay for the boon of American citizenship.

An outstanding proposal.

[Clodfobble]

That was awesome, Philosopher. Will you tell us what country you're originally from, or would you rather not?

[BigV]

*applauds*

Good news: Philosopher, your eloquence/post ratio is 1.000.

Bad News: It can only go down from here.

Good News: Welcome!

[Catwoman]

Mmmmm Uncle's Sam's meatballs taste really good... fair point though. Welcome, lover of thoughts.

[jaguar]

well that breaks the often downward spiral of new posters.

[OnyxCougar]

[quote=warch]

Who are these hoards of slackers you have a problem with? I see tons of English language learners each week of all levels. Might there be other reasons besides time that their fluency is lacking?

Yes, I'm sure there are, and they include laziness. Why learn English when you don't have to? And you DON'T have to, in places like California, Arizona, and Texas (all places I have lived, by the way).

Does that matter to you? Should we just leave them ill informed?

Should we leave them ill-informed? HUH? THEY came HERE VOLUNTARILY. Why do we have to educate them to speak our language?? Why is that my responsibility??

Would that impact us negatively? Should we help them at all?

If they are citizens, and therefore can hold a job, then they can afford a class to further their english instruction. But, as it has been pointed out, to become a citizen requires at least a working knowledge of English. I'm speaking primarily of the hordes of illegals that can't or won't learn English.

What about helping fund English classes? Is that out, too?

Why should I pay for that??? THEY came HERE VOLUNTARILY. Now, if a philanthropic group of private individuals wants to fund classes, more power to them. But the government doing so is wrong, IMO.

I think translational, educational help is a courtesy and in all of our best interests. If you want participatory goverment you need to facilitate participation. You need to share information and communicate clearly.

If they can't communicate in our language, they aren't going to be participating in our language. That's the whole point. Again, I'm saying ESL classes should not be government funded. Private funding is a whole nother issue.

Remind me: What public education services do your children, those with special needs receive?

This school year: none. He was tested and confirmed to have problems, but they didn't have a special needs program that was appropriate. So he was placed in a regular setting, and disrupted the class all year. Your tax dollars at work.

Are they tax funded by the likes of me- someone with no children at all? I assume that your kids need government funded services and arent just slackers.

Neither child recieves anything other than regular public school education.

I dont view those expenses as a courtesy. I actually believe that investing in the access to and education of your kids is a good, financial and ethical investment on my part. I think it will make them productive and better citizens. And if your kids need communication assistance to participate as better citizens, I would think that a good investment , too.

That's great, and I appreciate your view on that, however, my children getting a public school education has nothing to do with the governemnt spending untold millions of dollars on printing forms in multiple languages and interpreters and higher salaries for bilingual employees.

There are so many other legitimate areas of waste in government spending of my money. What about the 72 milllion dollar pay bonus we just gave Brown and Root, inc. AKA Halliburton the non bid contractor who is still under investigation for shady accounting, overcharging? Where is that outrage?

I'm EQUALLY outraged at that waste. The difference here is that you justify the waste of funds on voluntary immigrants (and voluntary illegals) but not corporate politics. I don't believe either are justifiable.

[OnyxCougar]

Thank You, Philosopher, for being eloquent and for sharing your relevant view in a polite, non threatening and thoughtful manner.

And welcome to the Cellar....