The Vote: 90 to 9

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I don't have much problem with our self-made, self-declared enemies getting leaned on, tortured, and squeezed dry, for their sins.

And despite evidence to the contrary, you are willing to assume that everyone brought in is one of the self-made, self-declared enemies with torture-justifying sins?

One thing is certain, however. If, after torture, we determine that they were innocent and release them, they leave with a larger likelihood of being a self-declared (not self-made, though) enemy then they entered with. And thus the sins are perpetuated.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The essence of my irritation with tw is that I want the war won, and tw broadly implies, though he will never say it aloud because the whole board would turn on him, that he does not.

Since you're the only one to come to that conclusion, it is clear to me that the essence of your irritation is, like many of your complaints, self inflicted. You're irritated because you infer tw "does not want the war won". It's your problem, not tw's, whether you take ownership of it or not.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

When you are fighting an insurgency, intel on the insurgency is as vital as oxygen.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

This gives the intel collectors a LOT of latitude.

Understatement of the year. It may give them "latitude", but there is overwhelming evidence that the fruit of this "latitude" is rarely genuine, useful "intel". Dude, torture produces noise, pain and more enemies by virtue of the very bad publicity, not intel, certainly not enough to outweigh the costs.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Since I, for one, and very likely you for another, don't want to get ambushed in my bed,

Typical melodrama, exaggeration and fearmongering. And by the way, stop putting words in my mouth. I especially don't like you presuming to speak for me. This statement of yours and the next one taken together imply "torture is necessary to prevent a bedtime ambush". Have I summarized your thoughts correctly? I think I have and I think they're bullshit.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I don't have much problem with our self-made, self-declared enemies getting leaned on, tortured, and squeezed dry, for their sins.

Time out. Stop. This is wrong. You wrongly presume that all subjected to torture were enemies to begin with, a false assumption. A false assumption made more dangerous by the fact that any torture victims that were not enemies to begin with would certainly become enemies afterward. But although this enemy-generating policy is troubling and self destructive enough, it is dwarfed in comparison by the enemy-generating buzz our attitude toward torture inflames. It's like putting out the fire with gasoline.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

A certain kind of violent and virulent anti-Americanism must be ruthlessly opposed, broken, discredited, ruined, and practiced only by dead people. It must be read as licence for Americans to come and kill you in your backyard. For too many decades my nation has been the longsuffering target of every damned idiot with a bomb and a grudge, and I was heartily sick of it in 1975. Imagine how savage I get about it thirty years on. We've been too easy on those who would assail us, when they could be making far better lives -- at least through being wealthy enough to buy options -- emulating us instead. I deride the whole bomb-and-grudge crowd as a pack of idiots, and idiots never have good causes.

blah blah blah... You refuse to see that you can not (sorry, the right words here are pretty short), repeat, can not toture our enemies into extinction. Think of the legend of the hydra. Each head you neutralize with torture spawns 2 or 10 or 100 new heads. You persist in willfully ignoring this fact. Too bad for us and them.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Your claim that my view is "chickenshit" is an extraordinary claim made without supporting evidence. You'll have to come up with it, and it had better be suitably impressive.

By way of answering, allow me to paraphrase, if you will:

Why should I need some conferred authority to remark that your view is chickenshit, when we all have the evidence of your posts? Of all the CellarDwellars, are you not the most immoveably wrongheaded that torture is in any way, shape or form, useful, never mind "Pro-American"?

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Why should I need some conferred authority to remark that tw is the first and foremost of the complainers when we all have the evidence of his posts? Of all the CellarDwellars, does he not complain the hardest? You get the impression the guy doesn't believe Republican Presidents exist, or something. You certainly come away with the impression that Republican foreign policy leads to defeats for the kind of people tw likes -- communists and suchlike fascists. (I don't see much practical difference between these varieties of dictatorship. Both are reprehensible. Unfreedom in general is reprehensible, and our foes are all about unfreedom -- for such as we anyway.) So, he utters the most disgraceful hogwash. The man's a leftist and a mental mess. Being a crank isn't good if you want to be taken seriously -- the guy's understanding of recent history is beyond mistaken and into the bizarre.

Whatever, tw can be king of the complainers if you want. It was overreaching for a humor point on my part. You dislike tw more than you dislike me, fine, whatever. But I stand shoulder to shoulder with tw in opposition to you on this score.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

If you're going to say our policy is all wrong front to back, it behooves you to come up with a credible alternative, one that actually is better, and one that advances our interests while you're at it. Tw is ducking this kind of responsibility, and I don't think you, BigV, should help him duck it.

Look, identifying a problem is the necessary first step in solving it. tw's remarks, my remarks, and countless other's remarks here in the cellar and among a large and increasing majority in our nation are doing just that, identifying a problem. This step is enjoying some success, at last, despite the McCarthy-esque claims that such voices speak aid and comfort to the enemy. The next step is acknowledging that problem. This step has not yet been achieved, while those in power, or jointly in power, continue to believe as you do. Until that time, we cannot progress beyond "HEY!! This is WRONG!!!" If you don't see it as wrong, if you continue to believe you're right, it's pointless to talk about another way of doing things. Horse, cart, load...identify, acknowledge, solve. You're stuck on #2.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Oh, and one last note: don't use short words. Use the right words, regardless of brevity or of sesquipedalianism. Assume I have the sophistication and vocabulary of a William F. Buckley, and act on that assumption. Where we (excluding tw and one or two others who aren't putting a dog in the fight) differ is not in mental powers, but in worldview. Don't misplace your priorities: our foes represent unfreedom, and the last war we lost to the unfreedom-creeps meant two separate, unconscionable massacres: North Vietnam committed genocide against "enemies of the state" in 1959 and again in 1975. In 1975-79 that also generated a million refugees from a shitheaded social philosophy and its murderousness, and not much less than that in 1959. My point is that our enemies do not have a legitimate grievance or point of view; therefore I show them a hard face. They are not to be allowed to oppress us or anyone else. If they insist on it, they must insist from the gibbet -- to the carrion crows.

--continued later.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Oh, and one last note: don't use short words. Use the right words, regardless of brevity or of sesquipedalianism. Assume I have the sophistication and vocabulary of a William F. Buckley, and act on that assumption. Where we (excluding tw and one or two others who aren't putting a dog in the fight) differ is not in mental powers, but in worldview. Don't misplace your priorities: our foes represent unfreedom, and the last war we lost to the unfreedom-creeps meant two separate, unconscionable massacres: North Vietnam committed genocide against "enemies of the state" in 1959 and again in 1975. In 1975-79 that also generated a million refugees from a shitheaded social philosophy and its murderousness, and not much less than that in 1959. My point is that our enemies do not have a legitimate grievance or point of view; therefore I show them a hard face. They are not to be allowed to oppress us or anyone else. If they insist on it, they must insist from the gibbet -- to the carrion crows.

You are right, we do differ in worldview. Not on the subject that we have enemies, and that they are to be confronted and defeated. But on quantity and means. You see enemies where others do not. You contend that the end, torture, justifies the means, intel, and others do not.

Are you inferring that I use the wrong words? Are you inferring that short words are not the right words? This is an example where reasonable people can differ on this subject: what the right words are. There's room for disagreement, and likely, more than one right answer. But this example stands in stark contrast to the issue of torture. Reasonable people can not disagree on its validity. There is no reasonable justification of torture. No non-hypothetical example that doesn't represent a loaded question. Torture is wrong. America does not stand for wrong, how have we permitted ourselves stand for torture?

A previous discussion of torture here, and my own thoughts here and here, among others. You should read it. You would learn much of my thoughts on the issue, and I have not changed my mind in the interim.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

We've been too easy on those who would assail us, when they could be making far better lives -- at least through being wealthy enough to buy options -- emulating us instead. I deride the whole bomb-and-grudge crowd as a pack of idiots, and idiots never have good causes.

I'd been avoiding this thread, but since I'm in an irritable mood tonight, what the hell?

Soooo, UG, where is your outrage over Bin Laden, hmmmm? Everyone could be making far better lives at this point, hell they could be just STAYING alive, but thanks to the "bomb and grudge" crowd in the Pentagon we are bogged down in a ridiculous war in Iraq while Bin Laden runs free and laughs to himself- no doubt plotting the sequel to 9/11. Thanks to the Bushco's short sighted and self-serving actions, Bin Laden will have plenty of fresh recruits to his cause.

By all means, let the US openly admit to a policy of torture, that should help swing any fence sitters to our side, I'm sure. Let's be done with the hypocrisy! The world will admire our honesty, if nothing else, right?

"Hi there! We're the United States of America. We just wanted to introduce ourselves, since we'll soon be sending in the boys in 3/3 ACR, along with a few other of our regiments. We'll be searching your country for oil, WMD's, and people who aren't delighted by our presence in that order. You may arrange for a democratic vote on whom you'd like us to torture first. We may or may not pay any attention to the results depending on whether we're having a bad hair day or not. It is a pleasure being your global oppressor - we mean bringer of democracy. The attack will begin in 10 minutes.

- Love, the People of the United States of America and Urbane Guerilla"

[Urbane Guerrilla]

No laughing matter that; the sober answer is we Americans are unlikely to really know the war's won until some time after we actually have. Eventually the hate-America loser-type foreigners will grow silent and devote their energies to making better lives for themselves instead of avenging perceived slights blamed on that successful lot, the Americans.

[Fluffy the Kat]

I must quote the Hon. Senator McCain from NEWSWEEK,Nov. 21:

(Regarding Sen. McCain's torture during his imprisonment in North Veitnam)

"Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane and degrading treatment, a few of them unto death. But every one of us--every single one of us--knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them; that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committting or approving such mistreatment of them. That faith was indespensable not only to our survival, but to our attempts to return home with honor. For without our honor, our homecoming would have had little value to us."

Both Mr. McCain and me the Fluffy say-

This is America. "We stand for Democracy--the greatest of political ideals. We stand not for a land, a king, nor a twisted interpretation of an ancient religion, but for an idea that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights."

Let us all, including our leaders, not forget this.

[Happy Monkey]

[russotto]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

W told me the mission was accomplished, how will I know when the war is won?

When you take a commercial flight and the only check you undergo is the one to make sure you have a ticket.

Before that, you'll know because all those things you said would happen when Hell froze over, happened.

[Happy Monkey]

From here.

According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

"This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

Normally, one would think that this was a problem with torture - the information it gives is what the torturer wants to hear, not the truth. But given the way this war was sold, that may have been considered a plus rather than a minus.

Yeah, any idiot should know better than to try to extract information by torture. Oh, wait! That's who is in the White House. never mind...

[BigV]

Hey, Urbane Guerrilla:

What do you say about the case of the founder of the legendary gang, The Crips, Stanley "Tookie" Williams?

Here we have a case were the authorities have custody of Willams. He is their prisoner, but has not debriefed officials. He has stated he has no interest in becoming a "snitch". Williams has admitted "terrorizing" Americans in southern California. His scheduled execution date is 13 Dec 2005.

Are you in favor of clemency so that he can be subject to "enhanced interrogation techniques" in order to extract "intel as vital as oxygen"? Or would you favor execution, thereby condemning more Americans to suffer, perhaps to die, unecessarily, in the absence of the vital intel?

"Williams' refusal to debrief, and his characterization of the debriefing process as 'snitching' clearly shows that Williams has not turned his back on the Crips gang, a gang he co-founded," said the document signed by District Attorney Steve Cooley.

"Although Stanley Williams is not directly responsible for every gang crime committed today, he was an integral founding member of a gang that has contributed, and continues to contribute, to the gang problem with devastating force."

Fry him or fold him? Hang him or hurt him? Drown him or drown him just a little?

[tw]

We sometimes forget the fruits of torture. For example, remember the Aug 2004 hype associated with an attack on Citigroup & NYSE in NYC, IMF and World Bank in Washington DC, and Prudential in Newark NJ? What happened to that attack? What happened to all those orange level warnings? Aug 2005: Mass Transit. July 2004 Heavy truck bomb. 20 May 2003 nonspecific. 17 Mar 2003 suspicious activity in and around military facilities, ports, waterways, bridges, dams, power generating facilities. Classic of what happens when we use torture. Repeated orange level warnings were bogus.

Meanwhile the Radisson Hotel in Amman Jordan was attacked. Why? It was predictable. The previous attack was quashed by Clinton when Clinton read his PDBs. As a result, custom agent Diana Dean on the WA / BC border caught Ahmed Ressam carrying a bomb for LAX - a Millienium celebration attack. And without torture, that collar lead to another possible attack on Montreal, an operative in Pakistan, a possible attack on the Times Square New Years Celebration (from Brooklyn), another operative near LAX, assault on some Christian tourist sites, another operative working as a cab driver in Boston, and the definitive attack on the Radisson in Amman. The King of Jordan said "They weren't planning terrorism, they were planning a revolution" when he described the amount of explosives found in that upper middle class home.

The only attack not thwarted - by not using torture and by a President reading his PDB - was the attack on the USS The Sullivans. That attack failed when the boat was overloaded with explosives - and sunk.

A different group attacked the Radisson last week. But you know it was coming. When one completely independent terrorist group fails, another will then target the same location. True of the Radisson, of the WTC, and of US destroyers in Yemen ports. This thwarting of terrorism by people who learn not by torture - and therefore obtain useful answers.

[warch]

the bottom line: Impeach Cheney for gross misconduct of his duty and power. Let him go to trial.
Clinton blown by an intern and lies = Impeach.
Cheney blown by the energy industry, lies, then sets in motion, via Rumsfeld, covert policies of torture and chemical weapons, lies. = Impeach.
Seems fair to me.