Antisocial Personality Disorder

[Griff]

Well said. Sure we're acted upon but in the end we choose. I've seen kids over-come learned helplessness, so I think the rest of us can as well.

[skysidhe]

We see eye to eye then. Thank you sir.

Originally Posted by Brianna

We already DO have a society wired this way. I see the wasteland everywhere. My twenty-something nephew lived with me for a few months last year and his complete lack of motivation astounded me. It was so pure it was a thing of beauty.

As for the 'soft addiction'--where do I sign up for one of those? It would be a pleasant change from the hard-core stuff I currently deal in. Does anybody watch A&E's INTERVENTION on Sunday nights? Great show.

Yes, and what astounds me is how those who are enabling the HELL out of the addicts act like the biggest victims in it all... it is constant.

Geez, the thread from la-la land! I gotta start paying more attention to the Cellar again. OK, listen up folks!

There are definite personality disorders such as narcissistic personality disorder, anti-social personality disorder, etc.

Most psychologists believe that these disorders have more to do with early childhood treatment or mistreatment by the kid's primary care takers. There does seem to be some familial connection with schizophrenia and NPD, etc. Thus, its possible that brain chemistry does dispose some of us to these PD's.

HOWEVER: People with PD's know right from wrong. People who are out and out psychotic may not, but this is not true of someone who is a sociopath or psychopath. They KNOW they are doing wrong and they don't give a rat's ass.

There is no cure for NPD, APD, etc. Why? Because the people who have such disorders don't care and/or are incapable of the introspection required to make the needed changes in behavior.

For someone with a PD, the rest of us are sort of like TV sets or toasters. Do you care if you hurt your toaster's feelings? If your TV tells you to change your wicked ways, will you? NOT HARDLY!

Yeah, its sad that some parents are so twisted that they grow these twisted kids who become twisted adults and continue the cycle. Does that mean I'm going to say, "Poor baby! Mama didn't love you. Go ahead and rape and murder?"

That's a negativisky to that. They KNOW right from wrong. I feel sorry for drill sergeants or anyone Else who has to encounter these individuals. I even feel sorry for people with PD's in a weird way. Does this mean I think they should get a get out of jail free card? Hell no!

Yeah, we all get to play the hand that was dealt us. Some folks have a predisposition to addiction. Many of them can overcome it if they try. Some can't. Too bad. Some of us are neat freaks and some slobs and some of us can't resist buying anything that's on sale. These things are our burden to bear. Some bear their burden better than others.

I'm all for understanding reasons and whys and wherefores. God knows, some folks got dealt miserable hands. But some folks who get dealt all low cards do amazingly well. There's such a thing as spirit and heart and soul and courage.

There's no easy answers. And there's no such thing as predestination or the "devil made me do it" either.

[Flint]

I just like to be specific. I like to start from a set of known facts and proceed accordingly, regardless of how I feel about where the facts are leading me. There has to be objectivity which isn't influenced by a fear of unwanted conclusions.

So, from the beginning: is our nervous system composed of physical materials? Yes. And do physical materials have to obey the laws of physics? Also, yes. That is a known set of facts.

A second set of anecdotal evidence consists of our perception that there is an "x factor" which elevates us above the mere sum of a complex organic computing system. We want to believe that our thoughts and emotions are something more than neuro-chemical phantoms generated by ordinary chemical reactions. But, what evidence is there to support this?

What is "awareness" - what is it made out of? Does it exist in a magical dimension seperate from physical reality? We don't have the answers to this question, but I like to start from what we do know.

We can't put the cart of our expectations before the horse of the available evidence. We don't want to think of a society where people are absolved of personal responsibility, so we avoid what we know about reality - in favor of what we are more comfortable with. We choose ignorance because we cannot immediately see the outcome of exploring an unknown path. That's not clear thinking, that's not good science - a flawed foundation will never produce a solid result.

Whatever makes us tick has to be either #1 a physical process that obeys the laws of physics or #2 a magical spirit from the land of fairies and unicorns. There is no fuzzy middle ground.

And by the way, Quantum Physics doesn't help tear down this Newtonian-sounding argument. Quantum Physics adds, at best, an element of pure randomness. Going on the assumption that a comfortable-feeling conclusion is desired: would one rather be a robot that obeys a set of complicated laws, or a unpredictable anamoly with no control over a series of random occurances?

You'll notice I haven't ventured one step beyond what I said in my very first post here. Like I said, I like to start at the beginning, from a set of known facts, and proceed accordingly. Also, I like to avoid acting like a shit-flinging monkey who has no response beyond personal insults and unsubstantiated non-rebuttals.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's not clear thinking, that's not good science

How can those exist if our thoughts and emotions are..

neuro-chemical phantoms generated by ordinary chemical reactions

There is no fuzzy middle ground

Says who?

[Flint]

The scientific method is designed to fend off flawed assumptions. It intends to compensate for our desire to color our perceptions with personal bias. It does a pretty good job considering the impossibility of that task. Luckily, science isn't carved in stone. We peel away the layers as we go.

Originally Posted by Flint

Whatever makes us tick has to be either #1 a physical process that obeys the laws of physics or #2 a magical spirit from the land of fairies and unicorns. There is no fuzzy middle ground.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Says who?

What other options are there? It's physical, or it's something else.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Flint

The scientific method is designed to fend off flawed assumptions. It intends to compensate for our desire to color our perceptions with personal bias. It does a pretty good job considering the impossibility of that task. Luckily, science isn't carved in stone. We peel away the layers as we go.

How can we do all that if our thoughts and emotions are nothing but "neuro-chemical phantoms generated by ordinary chemical reactions"?

What other options are there? It's physical, or it's something else.

You set up an answer with rediculous extremes and claim there can be nothing between them. Prove it.

[Happy Monkey]

You can't prove it. But it can be disproven if a counterexample is found.

Originally Posted by Flint

The scientific method is designed to fend off flawed assumptions. It intends to compensate for our desire to color our perceptions with personal bias. It does a pretty good job considering the impossibility of that task. Luckily, science isn't carved in stone. We peel away the layers as we go.

Yes, that's why we have the sciences of psychology, psychiatry, and neurology. Personality is NOT a "magical spirit from the land of fairy tales and unicorns." Some aspects of personality or some tendencies do seem to be inherited - autism, schizophrenia, and some forms of intelligence are examples of this.

Most neuroses and, to a large extent, personality disorders, are more the result of early childhood experiences than they are brain chemistry. I suggest you read the book by the respected psychiatrist, M. Scott Peck called People of the Lie, if you are in doubt about what constitutes personality and what constitutes evil.

The world cannot be explained by physics alone. To attempt to do this just goes to show how ignorant of science you really are.

Originally Posted by Flint

What other options are there? It's physical, or it's something else.

Exactly. Its physical and a 100 if not a 1,000 "something elses." Good science does not fall back on black and white thinking. Science is subtle and complex. Try cracking a book on biology or psychology sometime. You'll be amazed.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Flint

Care to elaborate on what those errors are? Please be specific.

Flint, I am confused. I am just a country bumpkin but I am sure you mean the laws of human physiology and not the law of physics.




When something confuses me I am on it like a squirrel with a nut. ( no pun intended)
So I did a little research this am to give you the specifics you asked for.

I am looking for something that proves physics has anything to do with what you are talking about.

I think not but I try. I look up the law of physics. You know atoms,time and gravity.

http://srikant.org/core/phy11sep.html



I find a paper from a University that trys to deal with what I think you might be going for. It is the question of human physiology and consciousness.(or awareness) I don't agree with it but it is discussed from a physiology standpoint and not a physics stand point. I could'nt find anyone talking about human physics sorry

( I lost that link but if you google human physics together you might find it.)


http://scbe.stanford.edu/conference/hallett.pdf



Here is another article with the word physics in it. Even thought the classroom is called,'The Physics Classroom' the person talks about the physiology of hearing and the perceptopn of it which falls under human psychology. The only physics involved is the mechanics of how sound travels.

Originally Posted by Flint

Care to elaborate on what those conclusions are? Please be specific.

You said :

Originally Posted by flint

Whatever makes us tick has to be either #1 a physical process that obeys the laws of physics or #2 a magical spirit from the land of fairies and unicorns. There is no fuzzy middle ground.

As far as my research shows there IS a fuzzy middle ground. In your own words you say there isn't but there is. Your above post is your own conclusion but they are in error.


How about these sciences for fuzzy ground?


Neuroscience - Neuropsychology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience
Neuroscience is a field of study that deals with the structure, function, development, genetics, biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, and pathology of the nervous system, consisting of the myriad nerve pathways running throughout the body. The study of behavior and learning is also a division of neuroscience.


Psychology - Cognitive Psychology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology



Philosophy - Philosophy of Mind

• Choice
• Concept formation
• Decision making
• Judgment and decision making
• Logic, formal and natural reasoning
• Problem solving

They work within that area you say dosn't exist . I must question whether you really believe what you say.


sorry you asked

[Flint]

It's a really simple concept. Physics is: what? The laws of little particles and waves and such. And what is the world as we know it made up of? This stuff, this stuff that must obey these laws. There isn’t anything that isn’t made up of this stuff, that must obey these laws. A basketball, bouncing, must obey these laws. A computer, crunching numbers, must obey these laws. And a clump of organic matter, inside your head, must obey these laws. To assume a special quality as regards ourselves in particular is highly arrogant on our part.

Originally Posted by marichiko

...the sciences of psychology, psychiatry, and neurology...

These sciences describe processes occurring in the human “mind” – and a lot of debate goes around about where the “mind” lives. However, what we do know is that the body and the brain are composed of the same material as the rest of the universe. Therefore, unless we are to believe that some outside force, some unknown force, is acting upon us, animating us in some unknown fashion (and that is an interesting possibility, and I don’t rule that out – but that possibility can be proven or demonstrated at this point), then we have to accept that we obey the same laws of physics as everything else.

Originally Posted by marichiko

...autism, schizophrenia, and some forms of intelligence...

These conditions, unless caused by mysterious invisible forces, are the playing out of complex chemical rections – that obey the laws of physics, just like everything else.

Originally Posted by marichiko

...more the result of early childhood experiences than they are brain chemistry...

The perception of the experience, and it’s result upon the individual, take place within the neuro-chemical framework of the human body - that must obey the laws of physics, just like everything else.

Originally Posted by marichiko

The world cannot be explained by physics alone.

Of course not. But you can’t just ignore physics either. The laws of physics act upon all known materials in the universe, including us. We aren’t special.

Originally Posted by marichiko

To attempt to do this just goes to show how ignorant of science you really are.

I could say that you are ignorant, for failing to understand my very simple point, but I won’t, because hurling personal insults doesn’t do it for me. I prefer substance.

Originally Posted by marichiko

Good science does not fall back on black and white thinking. Science is subtle and complex.

This characterization of my argument is actually humorous to me. I have a simple point. I am speaking in simple terms because my point is very simple. I am highly aware of the complexity of science. I am aware, for instance, that you can’t just ignore fundamental facts. To me, that is truly ignorant.

Originally Posted by marichiko

Try cracking a book on biology or psychology sometime. You'll be amazed.

Hey, more personal insults, cool. You fail to grasp a simple point, and accuse me of not being able to see beyond that point. I can see just fine - however, I am simply discussing the one point you are failing to grasp. As long as you keep failing to grasp it, I will keep trying to explain it. Why? I guess I just have faith in humanity, in the ability of people to understand very basic concepts. Call me a dreamer...

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

How can we do all that...

Meaning, employ the scientific method with 100% unfailing accuracy? We can't. We can only do our best. As I said, science is "designed to" and "intends to" do something that is an "impossibility" - but, it isn't "carved in stone." So, we do our best. If we want to throw out the scientific method, we may as well teach Creationism to our children.

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Flint, I am confused. I am just a country bumpkin but I am sure you mean the laws of human physiology and not the law of physics.

Physiology describes physical aspects of the human body. Physical object must obey the laws of physics. Physiology doesn't make physics not exist.

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Neuroscience - Neuropsychology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience
Neuroscience is a field of study that deals with the structure, function, development, genetics, biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, and pathology of the nervous system, consisting of the myriad nerve pathways running throughout the body. The study of behavior and learning is also a division of neuroscience.

Neuroscience describes physical aspects of the human body, and the functions of these physical aspects. Physical object must obey the laws of physics. Neuroscience does not refute physics - they work together. You can't just ignore one of them.
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It is an exceedingly simple point, folks.

[Flint]

We are physical objects and everything that happens within us, no matter how complex it is, is based on physical processes that must obey the laws of physics. The only argument against this is that there is some unknown outside force that makes us, of all things, special. I doubt that. I aggressively doubt that we are special beings which defy the laws of physics. That is my point. That, and nothing else. I am simply not discussing any of the peripheral subjects here which don't address this point. Why? Because first things must be considered first. I am not ignoring the subjects put forth here, but nothing can make the basic laws of the universe just go away, nothing. Especially not us. We are nothing special.

OK, Flint. I agree that human beings follow the laws of science. But you forget that science is merely a HUMAN construct which we use to attempt to understand the world around us. Science is not God. Science is as fallible as the human beings who use it. Consider LeMarquism, for example. Consider the the discrepancies between quantum mechanics and classical physics. Consider the fact that science and scientists constantly undergo paradigm shifts with new discoveries and new ways of thinking about and explaining the world.

Here's a reducto ad absurdum for you:

Pavlov's dog hears a bell ring each time it gets fed. After a while, the ringing bell is all that is required to cause the dog to salivate at the thought of food. The dog's brain has rewired itself so that the sound of a bell rather than the smell of food causes it to produce a chemical secretion (saliva) in anticipation of being fed.

Pavlov's dog escapes from the lab, grows up and enters the upper social circles of the canine world. Alas, when the butler rings the bell for dinner, PD can't help but drool all over himself. The pedigreed poodles snicker behind PD's back. PD's girl friend is ashamed to attend social functions with him. PD himself is filled with embarrassment and shame over his uncontrollable response.

Now PD can write this off to his cruel early childhood in the lab. A zillion members of PETA will support him in his stance. Its just physics, after all.

However, if you want to study physics, try reciting for me the third law of thermodynamics without resorting to Google. If you can't do that, join me and Pavlov's Dog in his behavior modification class where he slowly and painfully learns to be an accepted member of society again.

And if you think physics is all there is to the current dominant paradigm, then stay away from anything to do with biology or medicine and die alone cursing the darkness. We'll toll a bell for you.

OK, Flint. I agree that human beings follow the laws of science. But you forget that science is merely a HUMAN construct which we use to attempt to understand the world around us. Science is not God. Science is as fallible as the human beings who use it. Consider LeMarquism, for example. Consider the the discrepancies behind quantum mechanics and classical physics. Consider the fact that science and scientists constantly undergo paradigm shifts with new discoveries and new ways of thinking about and explaining the world.

Here's a reducto ad absurdum for you:

Pavlov's dog hears a bell ring each time it gets fed. After a while, the ringing bell is all that is required to cause the dog to salivate at the thought of food. The dog's brain has rewired itself so that the sound of a bell rather than the smell of food causes it to produce a chemical secretion (saliva) in anticipation of being fed.

Pavlov's dog escapes from the lab, grows up and enters the upper social circles of the canine world. Alas, when the butler rings the bell for dinner, PD can't help but drool all over himself. The pedigreed poodles snicker behind PD's back. PD's girl friend is ashamed to attend social functions with him. PD himself is filled with embarrassment and shame over his uncontrollable response.

Now PD can write this off to his cruel early childhood in the lab. A zillion members of PETA will support him in his stance. Its all physics, after all.

However, if you want to study physics, try reciting for me the third law of thermodynamics without resorting to Google. If you can't do that, join me and Pavlov's Dog in his behavior modification class where he slowly and painfully learns to be an accepted member of society again.

And if you think physics is all there is to the current dominant paradigm, then stay away from anything to do with biology or medicine and die alone cursing the darkness. We'll toll a bell for you.