Antisocial Personality Disorder - Page 6

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:23 AM

For more on the subject of "the peeling away of human arrogance"
Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot

Undertoad · 07-13-2006, 10:24 AM

Puh-lease,

Your original point, which you have now forgotten, was: since humans are governed by physics, they are automatons.

You said in post #2, So, unless one believes that there is some "magical" quality to a human being, then one must accept that we are essentially automatons.

OK, let's try it another way.

My brain, I very readily admit, is governed by the laws of physics.

So is my dog's brain. But I notice an immense difference between my dog's brain and my brain. My dog, for example, is not on the Intarwebs arguing about the nature of her brain. She is unable to even manage the simple task of selecting one particular key over another.

This difference can be explained by the laws of nature. But it is not very interesting to examine it from that point of view.

Nature, in creating man, developed an intelligence so profound that it is able to comprehend itself, the passage of time, logic, consciousness, etc. Merely through the laws of physics, it developed a meat so complex that it could use chemical/electronical means to save memories of past events. But that dosen't mean we're automatons - in fact it means the opposite.

You can dispute free will, and we know that personality is largely a product of the chemistry - the laws of nature striking again. But personality doesn't dictate our choices; it only suggests them to us. That seems pretty self-evident to me.

My dog is an automaton, in that her choices are almost entirely instinct. My choices are partly instinct, but I can override this and regularly do.

Like all people I have a gregarious nature, but I can exercise that nature differently. I can't choose not to be gregarious (lordy knows I've tried), but that doesn't mean I don't have free will to choose how to be. My basic shyness may suggest a general course of action, but I can choose to exercise it differently - I can stay in my room and sulk, or I can create an online community where I can feel a little more free to be social in ways I enjoy.

The laws of physics are specific and straight-forward, but when applied over millions upon millions of years, they have created a being so complex that it can have consciousness and be creative and make different choices.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:26 AM

Yes, it is complex, and we don't fully understand it. But it isn't magical. So my original point stands, logically - unless a rebuttal to the laws of physics is offered.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

My dog is an automaton, in that her choices are almost entirely instinct. My choices are partly instinct, but I can override this and regularly do.

Humans are an animal that is only .0000001% more complex than bacteria - in the big picture. That doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, then you tell yourself "I am human, I am special, I am above all things." Sorry, you aren't.

"Automaton" doesn't specify level of complexity. If you agree that your dog is an automaton, then you agree that you are an automaton. If not, then you are saying that a man is built on a different platform than a dog. That isn't the case. Sorry.

Undertoad · 07-13-2006, 10:40 AM

Not magical, yes - but automaton or not was your operative argument here, and you have completely dropped it.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:42 AM

Man is an automaton. There, now I said it again, so you won't forget.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

"Automaton" doesn't specify level of complexity.

Undertoad · 07-13-2006, 10:52 AM

Ah, so it's your definition of "automaton" that is really the root of the argument.

We could have avoided about 80 posts with clear reading?

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:54 AM

Perhaps.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 12:37 PM

You claim that we are at about the same level as bacteria, so then why are we debating human rights issues in other areas of this forum? If we are as Flint says then we don't need to because human happiness is also an illusion.

Happy Monkey · 07-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Illusion or not, it's all we've got. We've still gotta live in it.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 12:40 PM

Big thanks out to Pangloss for mentioning Matt Nagle, one of my profs was involved in some research regarding the chip used. Google the term 'Utah Array' for more info.

Trilby · 07-13-2006, 01:11 PM

*cue hippie music*

You guys are freaking me out...

Flint · 07-13-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

why are we debating human rights issues in other areas of this forum? . . . we don't need to . . .

Draw your own conclusion based on the available evidence, but don't shoot the messenger, and don't put words in my mouth. There is a whole arena of debatable topics just begging to be discussed here, but arguing that "the Earth (read: man) is at the center of the universe" is not one of them.

Pangloss62 · 07-13-2006, 02:04 PM

I think the best thing about that story is that Matt is now a REALLY important part of breakthrough research. Probably makes it easier to deal with being paralyzed. As they say, "There but for the grace of...."

Wait a minute! I'm supposed to be an atheist!

07-13-2006, 10:23 AM	#76
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	For more on the subject of "the peeling away of human arrogance" Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 10:26 AM	#78
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Yes, it is complex, and we don't fully understand it. But it isn't magical. So my original point stands, logically - unless a rebuttal to the laws of physics is offered. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 10:42 AM	#81
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Man is an automaton. There, now I said it again, so you won't forget. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 10:54 AM	#84
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Perhaps. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 12:37 PM	#85
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	You claim that we are at about the same level as bacteria, so then why are we debating human rights issues in other areas of this forum? If we are as Flint says then we don't need to because human happiness is also an illusion. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 10:24 AM	#77
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Puh-lease, Your original point, which you have now forgotten, was: since humans are governed by physics, they are automatons. You said in post #2, So, unless one believes that there is some "magical" quality to a human being, then one must accept that we are essentially automatons. OK, let's try it another way. My brain, I very readily admit, is governed by the laws of physics. So is my dog's brain. But I notice an immense difference between my dog's brain and my brain. My dog, for example, is not on the Intarwebs arguing about the nature of her brain. She is unable to even manage the simple task of selecting one particular key over another. This difference can be explained by the laws of nature. But it is not very interesting to examine it from that point of view. Nature, in creating man, developed an intelligence so profound that it is able to comprehend itself, the passage of time, logic, consciousness, etc. Merely through the laws of physics, it developed a meat so complex that it could use chemical/electronical means to save memories of past events. But that dosen't mean we're automatons - in fact it means the opposite. You can dispute free will, and we know that personality is largely a product of the chemistry - the laws of nature striking again. But personality doesn't dictate our choices; it only suggests them to us. That seems pretty self-evident to me. My dog is an automaton, in that her choices are almost entirely instinct. My choices are partly instinct, but I can override this and regularly do. Like all people I have a gregarious nature, but I can exercise that nature differently. I can't choose not to be gregarious (lordy knows I've tried), but that doesn't mean I don't have free will to choose how to be. My basic shyness may suggest a general course of action, but I can choose to exercise it differently - I can stay in my room and sulk, or I can create an online community where I can feel a little more free to be social in ways I enjoy. The laws of physics are specific and straight-forward, but when applied over millions upon millions of years, they have created a being so complex that it can have consciousness and be creative and make different choices.

07-13-2006, 10:40 AM	#80
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Not magical, yes - but automaton or not was your operative argument here, and you have completely dropped it.

07-13-2006, 10:52 AM	#83
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Ah, so it's your definition of "automaton" that is really the root of the argument. We could have avoided about 80 posts with clear reading?

07-13-2006, 12:39 PM	#86
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Illusion or not, it's all we've got. We've still gotta live in it. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-13-2006, 12:40 PM	#87
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Big thanks out to Pangloss for mentioning Matt Nagle, one of my profs was involved in some research regarding the chip used. Google the term 'Utah Array' for more info. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 01:11 PM	#88
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	cue hippie music You guys are freaking me out... __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

07-13-2006, 02:04 PM	#90
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Utah Array I think the best thing about that story is that Matt is now a REALLY important part of breakthrough research. Probably makes it easier to deal with being paralyzed. As they say, "There but for the grace of...." Wait a minute! I'm supposed to be an atheist! __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

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