So, what is the difference....

[JayMcGee]

mmmmmm....... I hear you, UT, but I'm still inclined to believe the 'american interest' thingie is still buried deep within the american psyche.... and your 'isolationist' remark only serves to reinforce my viewpoint.
As a nation, you are the probally the most powerful and influential in the world, yet as a people you are probally the most parochial.
It's a dichtomy that most of can't even understand, let alone resolve,
yet we have to live with the conseqences of that personality split.

And I don't hate Americans. Just your foreign policy.

[Undertoad]

And when all those conflicts were over, what did we do? Did we stay and conquer? No. What did we do? We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which they have embraced totally to their soul. And did we ask for any land? No, the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are.

-Colin Powell

[JayMcGee]

Now *that* is a good man.

You could do worse than make him your next President.

[Griff]

You like guys that lie to the UN?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Griff

You like guys that lie to the UN?

"Of course that was Bush's fault."

I'll vote for Condi if she runs. Maybe it'll make up for having voted for Gore.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

As a nation, you are the probally the most powerful and influential in the world, yet as a people you are probally the most parochial.

Hang in there...the EU escapes that designation only by not being "a people".

Yet.

But the French are working on it; it's their plan to rule the world.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

..... the several hundred Lebanonese deaths are neither here nor there...

They are not "neither here nor there". But that blood is clearly on the hands of Hizbullah.

Not bullying the Israelis into another premature ceasefire followed by another impotent "UN Interim Force" is the best hope of breaking this cycle.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Sure, I'm nit picking. Because damning statements like that stick in people's minds as fact.

Bruce, you would have to be daft to deny the US provided 'approval' to this war. To better appreciate the US /Israeli relationship, return to the story even of why Reagan kept that picture of a Palestinian girl on his desk.

The US does not order or command Israel as is somehow too complex for Brianna to comprehend. You know that even from an outright and intentional attack on the USS Liberty as MaggieL so accurately described in The Cellar previously. US once issued standing orders - from every US president except the current one - as to what US weapons could be used on or against. Those rules were honored by Israel for what again should be obvious reasons. It is a relationship similar to a dog and his master. It is a relationship recently changed by the Cheney doctrine (including pre-emption where the ends justify the means) that says Israel can now use any weapons they want without permission (apparently with but a few restrictions) on anyone found on a US regional 'enemies' list.

Why did Yasser Arafat not get murdered in the attack on his compound? You can bet Sharon, who has repeatedly attempted and failed to kill Arafat would have done so then ASAP. But again, American (and other) pressure stopped this otherwise event. Yes, Israel does get permissions for certain major events just like a dog usually obeys it master. And sometimes it will even intentionally attack a US Navy ship if necessary. It is a relationship where some Israeli actions do require US permission - and sometimes the dog does not listen to its master - and that too is permitted.

So did Israel get permission to wipe out Hezbollah? Of course. Who first expressed the plan is not obvious. But the event is exactly on a US 'to do' list and obviously would achieve US approval. Suddenly Israel is getting massive shipments of bunker busting and other bombs from the US. Orders that accidentally coincided with the event? Again, one would have to be daft. America has expedited shipment of arms that also happen to be used in Lebanon. You also want to call that coincidence?

Why does everyone call for a ceasefire except Condi Rice? Lebanese prime minister Fouad Siniora did something politically incorrect (and will probably pay for it politically in the future - this administration has a history of remembering taking revenge - a well understood Cheney habit). Siniora publicly demanded that Condi Rice no longer return until she calls for a ceasefire. His comments were a diplomatic insult to Rice. You mean Condi opposed a ceasefire? That ‘blunt in English' statement was intended and did publicly embarrass Condi Rice. Its purpose was a blunt and undiplomatic slap at the US; said in English to be even blunter; that Lebanon now wants the US to stop approving of attacks on all Lebanese. Apparently, it did as intended - in part because it was in English and in part because it was a public declaration to the world why a ceasefire was not happening.

But again we return to comments from so many insiders and adjacent reporters who were told why 'as background'. Yes, the US was running interference for Israel. Every proposal was being questioned or complicated by Condi Rice and the administration. A question commonly asked was how long the US could keep doing this. There was no doubt that the US was running interference for Israel. That is not even questioned. The only question being asked was how long would this continue? And again, I will not even try to provide the smoking gun - nor should I have to if you have been receiving the news as reported by too many sources from too many different world capitals.

The Cheney doctrine promotes final solutions - go to the military first when possible and end it now. Whalla. As if magic, we have an exact copy of the Cheney doctrine being executed on a major and violent - hated by everyone in the world - terrorist - rapers of women and children - Hezbollah. Except only the US has that opinion. Europeans do not call Hezbollah a terrorist organization. Lebanon calls Hezbollah part of Lebanon and its government. So you tell me who so desperately wants Hezbollah so destroyed as to associate it with Iran and Syria - like they were Saddam and bin Laden.

Meanwhile this quote is as accurate and is consistent with everything posted. If you disagree - then reread - you failed to take the proper perspective. Your questioned this quote because, well, one can only speculate as to why you are confused. This quote is consistent, accurate and yet simplified down to even Brianna's level - that makes her a contender for the Turing Prize.

The US may not have recommended it. But US permission to attack and invade Lebanon – complete with Condi Rice running interference for Israel – is obvious.

Yes obvious even from the so many 'coincidences' above and other news reports.

Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization once we eliminate the US hyper evil 'black and white' agenda. Hezbollah is another political group in the Middle East that was created for and exists to defend Lebanon. Eliminate the hyper Jewish spin and that is what Hezbollah is. A threat to Israel? Of course. Israel never stopped attacking Lebanon which is the reason Hezbollah was created. Hezbollah and Israel never stopped sparring and never will as long as both parties are dominated by extremist agendas. Such violence is and should remain status quo because neither side has any reason to want peace.

The Lebanon attack is a perfect copy of Cheney doctrine in action - destroy another arm of Iran. Condi Rice is clearly running interference for Israel. US is the only party obstructing and refusing to call for a ceasefire. US has increased shipment of weapons for 'attacking' Hezbollah. The US Israel historical relationship only confirms this intent by the US to support and encourage these attacks. And finally, those out there in the field are instead asking how long the US can cover for a currently failing Israeli military action. Nobody is even questioning US outright support for this agenda. The question asked is how long will this US attempt continue. But again, it is that obvious.

Israel will eventually conduct a massive ground assault on Lebanon because their previous actions have failed. There is little doubt that invasion will and must happen. Only question is why Israel dithered so long as if airpower was going to solve anything. Israel started this when Israel started massive military attacks on innocent Lebanon cities; as if that would solve a Hezbollah problem. Yes, completely trivial since Hezbollah and Israel have been doing these same and silly little 'slap face' games at each other for years now. Only a fool would think "Hezbollah attacked first". Why Israel (and the US) thought attacking Lebanon's cities would solve a 'slap game’ problem is a total mystery. But again, maybe Israel did not tell America that part of their plan.

Meanwhile, numerous reports and one line comments from so many sources means I will not document (and could not without setting a new record for length of a post) any of this. You can choose to grasp the summary or you can do as Brianna does - deny because it does not fit in her ignorance of history and her ‘four letter word' world. These sources also reported long ago why those aluminum tubes would not be for weapons of mass destruction. And just like back then, I would not document what we all now know (well UT still kept denying) to be quite accurate fact. Appreciate how honest those sources are.

Bruce, I have no idea how this inevitable Lebanon invasion will play out. Others do not even dare speculate. The invasion will be a very interesting wild card - making all previous bets by all parties in this event safe by comparison. It could go anyway because no one appears to be staking odds on what might happen next. Don't forget the many other regional parties that have yet to play cards (most will probably fold).

But one would have a grasp like Brianna to not recognize US approval of Israel's desire to massacre Hezbollah. Those who somehow view Hezbollah only in terms of the destruction of Israel need to learn of a world beyond Rush Limbaugh propaganda or four letter simplicities. Hezbollah is not the wacko force that UT would pretend they be. It is but another political entity in a region full of both wicks and legitimate political agendas. Even Israel has as many wackos as the other sides.

And so we really should consider arming everyone and promoting the ultimate paint ball game. At this point, could it really hurt? Well, at least it would be amusing over here - as some contenders sneak in their pistols and knives. Unlike MaggieL, I see them all for what they are. Groups of basic and wackos equally on all sides - and lots of justified hate.

Shame is that no honest broker exists anymore to bring about an Oslo accord now that so many Americans are so brainwashed as to become parochial. We are longer the same nation that once would create peace in the Middle East. Cheney doctrine, our 'enemies list', and pre-emption has ended that. We are now poeple too busy to view everyone in terms of 'good verses evil'. That was not America's 1950s and 1960s Middle East agenda. Now we are nothing more than a big military force with another agenda.

[Undertoad]

Again, how is this proof this entire action is directed from Washington?

If we are so confused as to not understand, simply explain how you have deduced this.

Misdirection, repeating the non-point, secret sources only you can know, everyone else is daft or worse, several straw men and goodness gracious the aluminum tubes make an appearance... but of course, the original, direct question is not addressed.

It's nothing short of what we've come to expect.

Are these the same sources that told you Jenin was a massacre?

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

mmmmmm....... I hear you, UT, but I'm still inclined to believe the 'american interest' thingie is still buried deep within the american psyche.... and your 'isolationist' remark only serves to reinforce my viewpoint.
As a nation, you are the probally the most powerful and influential in the world, yet as a people you are probally the most parochial.
It's a dichtomy that most of can't even understand, let alone resolve,
yet we have to live with the conseqences of that personality split.

And I don't hate Americans. Just your foreign policy.

Always the same, everyone bitches about us being "The World Police" until the shit hits the fan somewhere and we don't do anything. Then they bitch about us not being "The Benevolent World Police"... since we can't win, I don't really care any longer & don't think any of us should.

[Ibby]

I'm with rkzenrage.

[Spexxvet]

Hey, during the Clinton Administration, even the republicans bitched about the US being the world police. "We don't want our military going into Bosnia, Croatia, Sommalia, etc. without a firm exit strategy". Things change...

[glatt]

Somalia was Bush I. Clinton pulled us out of there.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Misdirection, repeating the non-point, secret sources only you can know, everyone else is daft or worse, several straw men and goodness gracious the aluminum tubes make an appearance...

UT you are arguing 'Saddam's aluminum tubes' logic again. It’s not everyone who is daft. But if you continue with denials and no supporting facts, then it is only that person who is daft.

You don't like what was posted. Then - and why do I have to say this to UT repeatedly - post your own facts. Why do you 'nay-say' as if that provides something useful? You did the same exact thing with alumimun tubes. Cited sources are not secret. You seem to have very limited information sources. Or you have a bad habit of filtering out information you don't like. You are doing your aluminum tube act again. Insist you are right and yet not provide a single useful fact. Instead you attack the messenger as if that proves something.

UT do you still deny why Fouad Siniora gave his speech - in English? Avoiding comment so as to not admit you were again wrong? Why then are you so silent? Feelings don't make analysis. The speech was given in English so that even UT would appreciate what Fouad Siniora was saying when he told Condi Rice to not return until she changes her tune. Sorry UT, but that fact still remains a fact no matter how many times you deny it - no matter how many times you instead attack the messenger. Nothing secret about that blunt and undiplomatic statement from Fouad Siniora - no matter how many times you deny it - and provide no facts for your 'feelings'.

It is a fact that the US was running interference for Israel's attacks on Lebanon. This is the Cheney doctrine by proxy. That is not even debatable AND UT provides no facts to dispute this. The debatable part is how long can the US keep running this interference. The debatable part is how severe this conflict might escalate. Instead, why not answer those real questions?

[Undertoad]

I rightfully wanted you to correctly defend a statement you made. You repeatedly failed to do so.

It's not about sources, filters, being smart or dumb, attacking or not attacking.

I've done nothing but provide facts, dichead. I've even provided corrections.

Again, my question was "How does Fouad Siniora demanding a cease-fire from Rice in English mean that the entire operation is directed from Washington?"

Your reply was "The entire operation is directed from Washington, it's a given if you read good sources."

But this is not an answer to my question. Would you like to try again? You seem to be arguing a different question than the one posed.