Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[Undertoad]

A vast majority of Israelis are in favor of the current action, which has little to do with Palestinians except when Hez missiles land in the West Bank. I've read that the Israeli peace movement that favors that approach to the Pals, is in favor of the current approach to Hezbollah.

[Hippikos]

Yes, in the current fog of war, all reason is lost. Hezbollah is getting more and more support for being the icon in the war against Israel just by not losing and Nasrallah being the new created Muslim hero.

There had been a chance of peace in the 90's but unfortunately got blown away by religious fanatics.

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” (Hermann Goering)

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

A vast majority of Israelis are in favor of the current action,

Depends on which action. Also the vast majority of Israelis don't want another invasion of Lebanon. Viewing from an informed Israeli perspective, that war without invasion is stupid. Either invade with troops on the ground OR do the only thing that was ever going to create peace. Hippikos has repeatedly made the important points. For example, too many in The Cellar want to view everything in terms of them and us. But as Hippikos demonstrates, it is mostly the fringe groups - the minority - that destroy peace often due to total ignorance and 'big dic' mentalities. So many of 'they' have different perspectives.

Currently we have Israel with a right to defend itself. Having a right means it should be exercised? Exercising that right means it is a solution. Yes according to extremists who always want war (despite what they claim). Extremist 'need for revenge' is accurate as long as the viewpoint is 'them and us' / 'black and white'. Today Israeli warplanes attacked the city of Tripoli. Do you know where Tripoli is? It is in the most northern part of Lebanon. Like Tyre in the south, these cities have nothing to do with Hezbollah. Attacking innocents makes no sense if peace is the objective. Why are innocents (not Hezbollah) being attacked? Just another example of 'Them verses us' / 'good verses evil' / 'black and white' thinking that only pushes everyone into the ranks of extremists. The 'big dic' mentality is alive and well.

Attack on Tripoli only makes more people want war. Attack on Tripoli only justifies more attacks on Israel. Israel attacked Tripoli. That alone justified 1000 more missiles against Israel. And yet Israelis are not so deceived by the 'fog of war' as to not even understand that they are only making more future wars necessary. The 'fog of war' or people too caught up in their rights to seek intelligent thought means more war and peace never possible. This is the situation that extremists love because it empowers extremists and recruits for extremists.

The problem: Israel responded to a kidnapping by attacking innocent Lebanese. Hezbollah, whose mission was defined by the defense of Lebanon, then did what they must do - as defined by their reason to exist. Hezbollah fired unguided missiles into Israel doing almost no damage. This leads to more innocent Lebanese murdered by the hundreds and a few Israelis killed by unguided missiles. Nothing useful accomplished if peace is the objective. More hate created - more extremists recruited - and all is fully justified in rights and the 'big dic' mentality of revenge. Israeli attacks on the innocent are exactly what extremists want.

Who are these extremists? Anti-humanity Israelis and Christian Zionists (also called American evangelicals) are some of those who want to destroy the world, if for no other reason, because they are dumbed down by a 'big dic' mentality - the fog of war. Yes, what Israel is doing is even what Osama bin Laden wants.

How does the informed Israeli instead react? First, the problem is not the 90% of Lebanon who are being attacked, made homeless, and are attacked only because they are all dirty Arabs. The tactical objective is only those Hezbollah missile. Therefore the Israeli army should move in up to the Letani River and expect Israeli casualties in the thousands. IOW either you confront the problem now - or live with it. Second, number of dead Israeli army troops becomes irrelevant once that tactical objective is necessary. An informed Israeli that wants to end this missile problem orders cannon fodder forward to take out those missiles with the only weapon that can do it - ground troops. Massive Israeli deaths in are totally acceptable because the objective is that important.

Don't like the thinking? Sorry. But if the objective is important, then a few thousand Israel dead is justified. Welcome to what extremists would create. Instead attack other innocents with airplanes. It will not solve anything but recruits and empowers the extremists.

Even Likud types fear that invasion because it will then drive centrists back to centrist positions - intelligent thought. Intelligent Israelis would then wake up and appreciate why the 'big dic' mentality only means more war - will never create peace and will always keep extremists in power.

Which brings us to the other solution. Negotiation. Only way to reduce violence - to stop recruiting for the enemy - is to negotiate. Arab league has the only viable offer to settle this - Seven points. And then 20 years of Hezbollah missiles in diminished numbers eventually means peace. Yes, 20 years of extremists trying to create more war - and war not created because no smoking gun exists. Notice that is completely contrary to the 'big dic' mentality. They are only trivial unguided missiles. Ignore them. Only then can peace be at hand. 20 years of minor violence necessary to undo what the 'big dic' mentality - attacking innocent Lebanese - has created.

But again, the 'big dic' mentality of "they killed one of us" will not let this happen. You want to live in Northern Israel? Fine. Expect some to be killed by trivial Hezbollah missiles and eventually Hezbollah has no more purpose because Israel still does not invade. Those unguided missiles are a threat like traffic accidents. Don't respond with a 'big dic' and the problem goes away. Negotiate and eventually the region becomes safe even for an international peace force and for people who would then remove Hezbollah.

That is the informed Israeli position. It will not happen. Too many just don't understand that a few dead neighbors is 'life normal' and is not a 'smoking gun' to justify war. Eventually, peace can happen as the ranks of centrists grow and the ranks of extremists diminish. This begins the only way to create peace. Negotiation complete with periodic and acceptable extremist violence is the only way peace is going to happen. Too many - and that especially includes American Christian Zionists - instead are enthralled by a 'big dic' mentality. To them, the right of revenge means revenge must alway be taken. That extremist 'big dic' agenda means more extremistis in power and more recruits to extremist ranks - and constant war.

Why was Tipoli attacked? Clearly not to stop Hezbollah. And if you don't know where Tripoli is, then that attack was acceptable. Extremism is alive and well - and murdering the other 90% of innocent Lebanese.

[Undertoad]

Well they're ready to go, so start counting.

But again, the 'big dic' mentality of "they killed one of us" will not let this happen. You want to live in Northern Israel? Fine. Expect some to be killed by trivial Hezbollah missiles and eventually Hezbollah has no more purpose because Israel still does not invade.

Yeah, that's what they've been doing and that's why over 90% of Israel is fed up and in favor of the current operation and the next one too.

Hizbollah attacks along Israel's northern border May 2000 - June 2006

You keep not mentioning these attacks. It's like you don't know about them, or they don't count, or something. Maybe it's a filtering problem on your part, or maybe it's your lousy biased sources.

Other words not appearing in any tw posts: 1559, Syria, assassination, Lebanese Christians.

[Undertoad]

Ah, take back the ready to go... they just turned around and the cease-fire is on.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You keep not mentioning these attacks. It's like you don't know about them, or they don't count, or something. Maybe it's a filtering problem on your part, or maybe it's your lousy biased sources.

Those missile attacks are a threat like aggressive drivers on a highway. Unguided missiles are not a 'smoking gun'. Apparently some confuse trivial threats as if these were massive 155 mm artillery attacks. Need I again cite hundreds of ships sunk off the US East Coast - and that still was not sufficient to justify war? Grasping this concept - the 'smoking gun' -remains elusive to UT.

Meanwhile, basis of a negotiated settlement is currently found in the Arab League's seven points that even include Sheeba Farms.

Peripherals such as Syria are relevant to those so biased as to see evil even in Syria. Syria has no camel in this conflict. If Syria was so evil, then so was the US for arming and financing the IRA in Britain? As soon as one says Iran and Syria are involved, then I know George Jr brainwashing has taken hold again.

Neither Hezbollah nor Israel are victims here. Both are the only two combatants; both acting with 'big dic' mentalities. Victims are an innocent 90% of Lebanon who were outrightly attacked only because some Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. That was the action that turned daily 'face slapping' into a dangerous and undeclared war on innocent Lebanon civilians.

So why is Israel attacking Tripoli? Why has Israel attacked Tyre, Beirut, and Sidon - cities devoid of Hezbollah? My bias is against anyone driven blindly by their 'big dic' mentality. Only the morally bankrupt could justify attacks on innocent civilians in Beirut and Tripoli.

Which bring us to predictable bias. UT, when did you even cite Israel for doing wrong; being the aggressor; even arranging a massacre? Never. Your pro-Israeli bias has been excessively obvious and consistent. When Israel foolishly tries to solve problems with war, you encourage it. I am often appalled at your approval of violence as a solution for everything.

This Lebanon situation is a classic case. You even approve of intentionally aggressive and unjustified attacks on Lebanese - as if they are all evil. When did you criticize Israel for intentionally killing innocent Lebanese? I am so often appalled at your blind approval of anything Israel does when 50% of the time Israel is the reason for destruction of peace. In this case, Israel is so much the aggressor at to routinely kill innocent Lebanese - and declare that an attack on Hezbollah. To agree with them, in this case, is blatant bias; implies moral bankruptcy.

Even more embarrassing is that Israel's own government is so confused as to not even invade with ground troops. Instead Israel declared anyone in Lebanon as Hezbollah and attack everyone in Lebanon - including intentional attacks on well marked Red Cross ambulances. Not just Red Crescent. Israel also routinely attacks well marked Red Crosses. This because Israel does not have the balls to invade the border with ground troops - lose a few thousand soldiers attacking their only enemy.

[Undertoad]

That's the TW world - there are dead and wounded bodies, but no smoking gun.

See according to you, Israel has performed some sort of "original sin" which makes it Perfectly OK for Israel to be attacked for years and years. A few dead soldiers, a few missiles here and there - oh, THAT is not some sort of "big dic" situation. The other side can do whatever they like and it is never a "big dic" situation. They can openly declare their intent to wipe it off the map and it is just normal diplomacy to tw. No big dic here.

Bias? Only in the other fellow.

Bias in favor of modernity, the free world, or truth? Not permitted.

Bias against Islamic Fascism? I'm not going to finish this thought.

Other cities devoid of Hizbollah? REALLY? Is that what you believe? No Hizbollah in Beruit? Uh, are you sure about that? Iran and Syria not involved? The other day they CAPTURED IRANIAN SOLDIERS, did you miss it?

My friend you have failed to read up on this situation, and are just going on instinct.

You are UNINFORMED and SPEAKING FROM IGNORANCE. And THAT is the WORST form of bias.

You think this whole situation is analgous to the Palestinian situation. You apply the same thinking to Israel on this stuation as you do to the Pal situation. That is wrong.

If you can answer this without bringing up Al*m*n*m t*b*s, I'll respond by not asking for your definition of "massacre" which we can then apply to all future discussion and beat you over the head with it like a stick.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That's the TW world - there are dead and wounded bodies, but no smoking gun.

UT, for someone so bound and determined to show 'hurt Arab pictures' as a fraud, why do you have anything but bias.

When the number of dead Israelis approaches anywhere near to number of dead and totally innocent Lebanese, then we have a number greater than zero. One dead Israeli body - because of numbers of dead Lebanese - is zero. That is how reality without emotion views life in a war. The minute you worry about the so few harmed Israelis, then I know your bias is reason for your post.

Basically I am looking forward to a thousand dead Israelis and a thousand dead Hezbollah. Only then will anyone start talking peace. You are not. Your view is every dead Israeli justified something like ten dead Arabs.

A man pulls a knife to rob another. The second calls for three batteries of heavy artillery and levels the entire neighborhood. Those neighbors were guilty because they protected the robber? That is a justified response? No it is how one encourages Armageddon. UT. Others accused you of complaining about pictures only because they made Israel look bad. You never note the same counterfeit pictures that promote an Israeli position. You are that biased. You don't act honestly. You don't treat all parties with equal praise or equal contempt.

Final point. Israel started this when they attacked Beirut airport. Your response is to decline to comment because you cannot dispute it. Sometimes an Arab group starts the conflict. This time, Israel did. Israel is historically responsible for about 50% of the unjustified aggression. You can't deal with that reality due blind bias - suggesting a racist mindset.

At least in TW’s world, we have equal contempt for all aggressors – including the mental midget George Jr. UT worries about a few dead Israelis – and conveniently forgets about hundreds of dead American sailors off the US East Coast back in 1940. Yes I don’t give a damn about a few dead people. I instead care about the millions of living – which again is why I care about the smoking gun.

It was no accident that the people UT favors also called for and got the murder of Rabin - because they so hate peace.

[Undertoad]

You never note the same counterfeit pictures that promote an Israeli position.

Happy to.

Please direct me to one.

[Flint]

Perhaps here? This supposed comedy website featuring the freedom-hating Bob and David of Mr. Show fame (if you could call it that) lets slip a nasty secret... Scroll to the bottom of the page for this damning evidence: Copyright ©2006 Liberal Jew-Run Media . . .

Hebrew Box Office - indeed! I believe that answers your question.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Happy to.

Please direct me to one.

So you are saying Isrealis are always honest and Arabs are always liars? You make my point.

Until you regard both sides as both good or both evil, well, then you remain biased. This is a conflict where every side has justification for their actions. Israelis under Likud remain as bad or worse than those other sides. Those who recognized this and were in position to do something could then create the Oslo Accords. When the claims of all sides were found justified, then peace almost happened.

Why did the Oslo Accords breakdown? Extremist even had to call for and create the murder of Rabin just so that logical thought - the ability to see all perspectives - was undermined. Peace was at hand only because there was no good and evil. There were only many conflicting perspective - and all were correct and justified. Your one-side bias in favor of Israel is is necessary to guarantee more war. It is the same attitude that Christian Zionists want to create Armageddon.

[Undertoad]

"good" and "evil" are terms I don't recognize, tw.

Israelis, including Israeli arabs, are more likely to be honest than most people living in Arabic cultures, because they live in a modern culture where truth is considered more important than honor.

Here is the awesome backgrounder on shame-culture versus guilt-culture. Required reading to understand the whole thing. If you're lazy like me and don't want to read the whole thing, at least scroll down to the colored tables that summarize the differences.

I first pointed to it in this thread.

But don't ask me, just ask this guy.



Of course, if I'm wrong, you can surely point me to one single example of a doctored photo supporting the Israeli side.

[9th Engineer]

By tw:

...Christian Zionists want to create Armageddon.
...it is how one encourages Armageddon
...George Jr also wants Armageddon. Do you?
...George Jr even got you to view the world in 'black and white' / 'good and evil' AND to want Armageddon.
...Who are these extremists? Anti-humanity Israelis and Christian Zionists (also called American evangelicals) are some of those who want to destroy the world

Is this starting to weird out anyone else here?


Also,

...Viewing from an informed Israeli perspective
...That is the informed Israeli position.

when did tw move to Israel?

[Undertoad]

Hey maybe you could check on Flickr for faked photos, there are a lot of photos on there.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

"good" and "evil" are terms I don't recognize, tw.

Israelis, including Israeli arabs, are more likely to be honest than most people living in Arabic cultures, because they live in a modern culture where truth is considered more important than honor.

In a culture where crimes can cost a hand - Arabs are more dishonest? Bull. Dishonesty and lying is exists and equal on both sides. Both sides are equally human. Both sides now have equal disrespect for human life. That disrespect is fundamental to why conflict exists.

One need only watch how Israelis confiscate Palestinian land illegally and in outright violation of laws to appreicate how lying, criminal deceit, and other crimes against humanity are acceptable in Israel. After all, which nation arranged for and achieve the massacre of 5000 Palestinian women and children? And yet even in the Cellar, so many posters don't remember how corrupt Israel also is. Israelis are no different from their Arab peers which is why even the Oslo Accords were destroyed.

Remember why I could doubt those accusations of aluminum tubes and other claims of WMDs. Why I saw early on the lies of Iraq, outright and obvious violations of Military Science 101 by the George Jr administration, and the potential for civil war directly traceable to American ignorance. I grew up watching propaganda created. I demand the irrefutible fact. Facts remain that Israel is no more moral than so many of their Arab adversaries. They even routinely attack Red Cross and Red Cresent ambulances. This is the same Israel that murdered their own prime minister because he was actually negotiating peace. This is a moral Israel? Facts say otherwise. But as Rabin demonstrated, Israel can also be honest - if ....

Extremist Israelis will routinely lie - are the most immoral. Remember why the US and USSR came closest to nuclear war - because Israelis lied. But again, this is the same honest Israel that 'accidently' attacked USS Liberty. Eliminate the obvious biases, then Israelis as a nation are no more honest or moral than their Arab peers.

They even murdered their own prime minister only because he was working for peace - the Oslo Accords. What Arab nation did that? Many Israelis are so dishonest as to even deny that fact.

Israelis are about as dishonest and immoral as their Arab neighbors. History demonstrates that fact. Only personal biases would deny it.