So, there's this girl I like............

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Sundae girl, to me nice refers to the way a man treats other people in general. That doesn't change the fact that I still treat other people with respect. I'm just not an asshole. Thats the distinction that I feel is important. Maybe I'm wrong, but there is a very large distinction between the two.

You are quite right, hence the "self proclaimed" part.

I'm talking about people who do little things for you that you don't want done, and assume this gives them a head start on your affections. They ACT rather than ARE nice. They totally miss what you find attractive in other people, part of which is the confidence to say Fuck You when it's necessary.

I've heard "Nice Guys" trashing their ex behind their back, dismissing other people on purely physical terms, whining about how much they spent on dating a woman etc etc etc.

Nice is as nice does. My best friend is probably the nicest man I know - and yes I would

[9th Engineer]

Originally Posted by capnhowdy

Tip from an old geezer:

Best way to find a woman is not to look for one. Most women would actually rather seduce the man. Just be available... from a distance. If she wants to play you'll be the first to know. Main thing is discretion. Keep it to yourself.

I like that advice, it's actually working better than any other approach I've ever taken. Tried being a nice guy (not really spineless but not bold and intrepid either) for the first two years of highschool, got nowhere. Basically gave up for the second two (got beaten out more like it for a comment about how I thought the addition of a womens shotput section on our track team didn't make sense) and now I just don't persue any relationship more serious than a study-buddy. Guess what happened as soon as I stopped trying? Boggled my mind at first, then started making sense.

I have been in a relationship, a good one, for a very long time.
People keep coming to me for advice... eventually it always comes down to one thing. They are attracted to dick-heads.
My advice is always the same, date people you are not attracted to, you will find one that is a diamond in the rough.
Date with your head, then fall in love with your heart, together you will get the shit in your pants right... there are videos, classes, books and a life-time to deal with that (the least important of the equation).
No one ever takes the advice, that they all agree is excellent.

The other thing is, when they are in a bad relationship, usually a cycle "what do I do?".
My answer, after hearing of all the fucked-up shit the other person has done to them, their friends, kids and family.
Leave them, change your locks & phone numbers. Do not answer the door or phone... wait for them to stop trying, move on. That is all.

They always say... "I CAN'T DO THAT!"

I hate the word can't.

I don't understand, if you are dating someone for some time, realize that this person is not "the one"... you are not in your teens... what are you doing?

[yesman065]

Sundae Girl - Those people you describe are two-faced not nice - but I think we agree - nice is a state of being not acting.

[yesman065]

Wow rkzenrage are you ever right. Thats the advice I finally took and since then I've stuck to my guns, so to speak and I've never been happier. I've got 3 great kids and a great relationship with a new woman who loves me and treatws me like I need and deserve to be treated! Its absolutely amazing and I wish I had done this years ago.

Thanks, that is very kind of you.

[Iggy]

That is very true.

Edit: I am a retard and the rest of my post was responding to another page of this thread, so I just deleted that part since it didn't really make sense here. But I agree 100% with rkzenrage. The man I am with now I would not have originally dated, but we became such good friends it kind of evolved. I definitely think that he is the one.

[9th Engineer]

This is to set the record straight on the 'Nice Guy vs Lowlife Weirdo' debate that's sprung up. It's where I got the material for my Guy A/Woman A post. It was originally a peice written for an Undergrad journal at Penn State (I think), but it's so good it has to be shared. It's one of those things that after you finish reading you just kind of sit there for a few moments with your head off to one side in perfect contentment. It's that damn good. Enjoy.

Ode to the Nice Guys

This is a tribute to the nice guys. The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends, that endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are, while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs, those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores. This is in honor of the guys that obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy their female friends are at the appropriate moment, because they know most girls need that litany of support. This is in honor of the guys with open minds, with laid-back attitudes, with honest concern. This is in honor of the guys who respect a girl’s every facet, from her privacy to her theology to her clothing style.

This is for the guys who escort their drunk, bewildered female friends back from parties and never take advantage once they’re at her door, for the guys who accompany girls to bars as buffers against the rest of the creepy male population, for the guys who know a girl is fishing for compliments but give them out anyway, for the guys who always play by the rules in a game where the rules favor cheaters, for the guys who are accredited as boyfriend material but somehow don’t end up being boyfriends, for all the nice guys who are overlooked, underestimated, and unappreciated, for all the nice guys who are manipulated, misled, and unjustly abandoned, this is for you.

This is for that time she left 40 urgent messages on your cell phone, and when you called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner. And even though you thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, you assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it. This is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor. This is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.

The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should. And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can’t. From what I have observed on campus and what I have learned from talking to friends at other schools and in the workplace, the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches. Many of them claim they just want to date a nice guy, but when presented with such a specimen, they say irrational, confusing things such as “oh, he’s too nice to date” or “he would be a good boyfriend but he’s not for me” or “he already puts up with so much from me, I couldn’t possibly ask him out!” or the most frustrating of all: “no, it would ruin our friendship.” Yet, they continue to lament the lack of datable men in the world, and they expect their too-nice-to-date male friends to sympathize and apologize for the men that are jerks. Sorry, guys, girls like that are beyond my ability to fathom. I can’t figure out why the connection breaks down between what they say (I want a nice guy!) and what they do (I’m going to sleep with this complete ass now!). But one thing I can do, is say that the nice-guy-finishes-last phenomenon doesn’t last forever. There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier, finding the ones that are single.

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all the nice guys. You know who you are, and I know you’re sick of hearing yourself described as ubiquitously nice. But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile. For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations where you are the faceless, nameless hero, my accolades, my acknowledgement, and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming.

Fu-zu Jen, SEAS/WH, 2003

[maninthebox]

Ode to the Nice Guys

Holy smokes that was awesome. I'm left speechless after that because it's so dam true. Thanks 9th for sharing that. Wish everyone in the world could read that.

[The 42]

That was fucking perfect, 9th! I want one of those!!!!! Except I don't want to be (Hope to god that I am not) the girl in the peice.

Oh and rkzenrage, you're 100% right about dating someone you're not attracted to. The truth is, physical attraction builds over time- first you get used to them, then you become attracted to them. I know this from personal experience- there was a guy that I worked with, the first time I met him I thought of him as quite ugly, then as I came to know him for the great guy he was, it slowly evolved to the point where I was insanely hot for him. (Run-on sentence alert!)

Unfortunately, we live in two different countries now. Oh well, there are other fish in the sea.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming.

Hmmm....nice sentiment. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the past or present to make me believe it's coming in the future.

Cynical? Maybe. Realistic, I think. Everybody loves a winner and winners tend to be the anti-thesis of Mr Nice Guy.

[9th Engineer]

Hence the jaded attitude in the the Guy A story. The essay is what we all want to believe, but in all but the rarest of cases it's only fantasy.

[yesman065]

I, if this is possible, am speechless. That is all of me put into a few paragraphs.

[Sundae]

What?
I am friends with Nice Guys. They don't act like that towards me - we have give and take relationships.

Man - I endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are...
Me - Really? How boring, when I witter on about my nemesis in the office my friends tell me to shut it

Man - I always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain myself to tentative hugs
Me - Are you saying that being there for a friend entitles you to a shag?

Man- I hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores
Me - And? Does she ask you to? If not stop doing it. Oh and I don't necessarily need to hear a breakdown of the Match for 90 minutes after it finishes, but if I'm out with a friend I'll go along with it. If she doesn't, drop her.

Man- I obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy my female friends are at the appropriate moment, because I know most girls need that litany of support
Me - If you don't like doing it, stop it. If you do stop using words like Obligingly and Litany. Some of your female friends probably don't realise you're not being sincere.

Man - She left 40 urgent messages on my cell phone, and when I called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner.
Me - You plum. That's not a friend that a needy disaster
Man - Even though I thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, I assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it.
Me - Blimey, you're not a very good friend are you. Hope she doesn't end up with a black eye at some point.

Man - She interrupted the best killing spree I’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world.
Me - If it was that big a deal for you, you should have told her you'd call her back
Man - And even though I thought it was immature and I had nothing against the guy, I paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor.
Me - Hang on, Nice Guy? Nice Guy? You're either spineless or spiteful if you do this just on her say-so.

Man - She didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of us, she dragged me to a party where I knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with me, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!”
Me - Why did you stick with her? Blimey - last time I dragged a friend to a party he got drunk & copped off & I got stuck paying for the whole fare home by myself! I forgave him though - he's a friend.

Man - the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches
Me - I beginning to think I don't want to be friends with you

Man - the world needs my patience in the department store
Me - and mine at the pool table - do I whine about it?
Man - my holding open of doors
Me - Again with the doors! I do that for other people too, you'd have to be really rude to let the door slam in someone's face
Man - My party escorting services
Me - Like I'd let a friend go to a party alone either
Man- my propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile
Me - Ah... Now we get to the crux of the matter. This female friend isn't a friend like I am. This "friend" is hot
Man - I tolerate all the crazy, inane, absurd things, I am the faceless, nameless hero, I want accolades, acknowledgement, and gratitude

Yes, you do don't you?

You don't deserve it.
If a male friend treated you like that you would delete their number from your phone. If an ugly female friend treated you like that you'd drop her like a hot coal.

You have set yourself up to be walked all over because you want sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you

And you think this makes you special.
And I bet you are making some sad mousy girl's life a misery whining about your goddess to her as well (only she has to go home and kick the cat)

NICE is as NICE does. Don't stay friends with users and you won't be used.

If any of my male friends were also "friends" with a woman like that I'd twat them over the head and ask them what on earth they were doing?

I'd say, "I know she makes you feel manly by being so needy, but you so don't need a friend like that! What's that? Oh you fancy her. Why? You don't seem to have anything in common..... Oh, she's hot. Right. Well what can I say, mate, you get what you signed up for."

[Sundae]

Just to reitereate - I am responding to the piece quoted by 9th Engineer, I'm not directing that at anyone posting.