Jesus Camp

[footfootfoot]

Some of our PA parishoners here may check me out on this:
I think the Amish are in agreement with you hence 'rumspringa'. As I understood they feel that a child is not capable of making moral decisions i.e. joining a religion and so spend some time before commiting to formally joining the community. (probably full of inaccuracies)

[limey]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

.... Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

Very neatly put. Can I use that?

[Pangloss62]

Can I use that?

Sure.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

Why teach them if you don't believe that they are true? Do you have some empirical set of data that leads you to hold certain values? Or are you simply passing along a set of learned, and believed, ethical values?

This seems like a pretty artificial distinction to me.

[Pangloss62]

Do you have some empirical set of data that leads you to hold certain values?

Experience and history of past human behavior rather than "data." I generally follow Kant's Categorical Imperitive:

"Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law."

That boils down to the "Golden Rule," you know, the "do unto others" rule.

By following the above no "beliefs" are needed.

[smoothmoniker]

The transition from "this is a way to live" to "this is the way you ought to live" is a transition from principle to belief.

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

Bollocks! Pure Bollocks!

"Niggers are lazy and inferior." "Jews are stingy and control all the banks." "People who deny God are going to Hell." "Women should submit to their husbands." "Our faith is the ONLY true faith, and if you reject it, you too will burn in Hell." All "beliefs" that are passed on to children to this day.

"Beliefs" are just that; they have no basis in reality.

Bollocks!!

So what?
My parents were taught many of those and so was I. They discarded some of them, I discarded some of the rest...
Big deal.
I promise you a lot of what you were taught was not "based in reality"... should we all hunt down your parents and persecute them?
You are overreacting.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

I just think parents should not convince their children of the existence of supernatural phenomena, which form the basis for most every religion. Teach knowledge, skills, empirical truths, don't indoctrinate. Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

Oh, now I got it. Parents shouldn't teach their children what they believe,
they should teach their children what you believe.
I think not.

I may not agree with what they teach their children, but I'll defend to the death their right to teach them. What do you propose, snatch all the children and put them in secular camps? Let the state raise them in a sterile setting?

[Griff]

...and folks wonder why we don't send our kids to public schools even though we are not religous nuts and are actually pretty open minded.

[Pangloss62]

they should teach their children what you believe.

You haven't been paying attention. I do not "believe" anything. Period. I said parents should not teach "beliefs." How hard is that to grasp? I'm not going to force anyone to do anything, I'm just saying it would be a better world if we got rid of "belief."

...and folks wonder why we don't send our kids to public schools

And why would an advocate of not teaching beliefs make for a "bad" public school teacher? I've taught college undergrads with great success and appreciation, and have engaged children in the study of history through volunteer work and through my job.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

And why would an advocate of not teaching beliefs make for a "bad" public school teacher? I've taught college undergrads with great success and appreciation, and have engaged children in the study of history through volunteer work and through my job.

The parents who are compelled to pay your salary should not be held in contempt by you. It is fine to challenge beliefs but to suggest that parents not teach there own children what they believe is shockingly high-handed.

[Pangloss62]

The parents who are compelled to pay your salary should not be held in contempt by you.

Why not? It's hard not too when you see what little un-thinking horors their parents have created. Besides, it's not like I'm out to become some educational Mussolini, I was just making and observation and suggesting a possible solution.

to suggest that parents not teach there own children what they believe is shockingly high-handed.

It's just a suggestion.

The ultimate high-handedness is to not allow your children to think for themselves. People treat their children these days like little projects, molding them to become what THEY want them to be.

"We're only making plans for Nigel...We only want what's best for him." XTC

I heard that song yesterday and thought about this thread. No wonder I liked that band.

[mrnoodle]

Parents should teach their children what they believe, because they are too stupid to form reasonable opinions on their own.

A brain that still thinks it's a good idea to pick one's nose and eat it is not capable of philosophy. The reason we aren't booted from the nest as soon as we can walk is because we aren't fully developed between the ears until age 22 or so.

If you don't believe me, just read the rest of this thread. Nobody thinks about this shit past age 25, they're too busy making a living.

[Pangloss62]

You people are just not understanding me. I never claimed one should not teach their children, I just would never teach my children "beliefs." Teach them all you know, just don't teach "beliefs" That word presupposes a lack of knowledge, a sort of hesitant, "Well, son, I can't say for sure, but I believe...."

I don't even use the construction "I believe..." in any sentence. It's useless.

And eating boogers never hurt anyone.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

I said parents should not teach "beliefs."

I think you're fooling yourself.

A lot of things that are beliefs need to be taught. I believe that it's bad to shoot at people for fun. That's a belief that I have passed on to my children. I hope that they pick up a lot of my beliefs. Lots of things that are not 'facts' still need to be taught to children. Real life can never be neatly packaged in the way that you hope.