Jesus Camp

[Pangloss62]

but doesn't that statement indicate that you believe (or have as a moral standard, or whatever) that a person should sacrifice their own benefit to make for a better society?

It's not a "belief," but a rational choice in order to create a preferred outcome. There are no morals involved. It's not a "tenet," it's a Catagorical Imperitive.

I'm done.

Don't bang your head anymore, dar.

[theirontower]

I just wanted to point 1 thing out about the movie and its content. This kind of thing has been going on for quite some time, its not a new development.

If these kids are being indoctrinated at such a young age so succesfully, where are they in their older years? Most likely by the time they are 17+ most of those kids will have the perspective that they are missing. There are always fringe groups and fanatics, but by and large, the world as a whole is not represented thusly.

Part of growing up and becoming an adult is analyzing your parents, their belief structure included, and figuring out if you agree and if it makes sense. This is where alot of children start to internalize pathos, ethos and logos.

Personaly I went to a christian school as a young boy until the age of 8 or 9, when the priests and I fell out badly due to my questions and their anger. That situation has been a defining moment in my life since then. As a college debater I was driven by the need to know, then exited the scene understanding that there is no "know" there is only perspective.

I think organized religion is a cheaters way out. We weren't meant to follow a book to god, we have to find it in our way, each of us. That book takes all the discourse out of it. How do you sit on a rock in the middle of no where and talk to god if all the answers are in that book? Its so easy to be told that these are the rules god laid out, now be a good boy. It just doesn't give much room for spiritual progression or enlightenment. Personaly, I have never felt the presence of god around other people or their creations, only when I am in the deep outdoors all by myself do I feel the presence of divinity.

Religion as a tool has many implications, good and bad, read the entire Dune series. Its not the idea of religion or god that makes it painfull, its mans interpretation to others that makes it painfull.

If some of you are looking for an interesting read check this out, Living Buddha, Living Christ This showcases the similarities and provides a historical basis for how the thoughts and perspectives of buddhism could have traveled to JC and been a part of his world as a young man.

Right and wrong are issues of perspective.

Harmony is more important.

Steve

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Oh come on, Pangloss -- you don't stop at the one nor the other; you do the both. They get the dos and don'ts and they get the reasoning behind them, in that order and in their due time. Which I think you say later on, if phrasing it vaguely.

I'm of footfootfoot's view about the rationality of the young. With the young, it is a triumph of emotion over experience. As you age, that ratio changes.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by theirontower

Personally I went to a Christian school as a young boy until the age of 8 or 9, when the priests and I fell out badly due to my questions and their anger. That situation has been a defining moment in my life since then. As a college debater I was driven by the need to know, then exited the scene understanding that there is no "know" there is only perspective.

This sort of thing makes me sad -- though, and especially since, it needn't happen. The godly way of life bears explanation. Perhaps you should not have taken their impatience, though, for not having an answer. One of those priests probably did, but you didn't find him nor hear it. It's the sort of thing one can often better follow or understand with an adult mind.

I think organized religion is a cheater's way out. We weren't meant to follow a book to god, we have to find it in our way, each of us. That book takes all the discourse out of it. How do you sit on a rock in the middle of no where and talk to god if all the answers are in that book? Its so easy to be told that these are the rules god laid out, now be a good boy. It just doesn't give much room for spiritual progression or enlightenment. Personally, I have never felt the presence of god around other people or their creations, only when I am in the deep outdoors all by myself do I feel the presence of divinity.

Offhand, I'd say you've the makings of a good Unitarian. Other denominations encourage thinking, but you have to work your brains to make Unitarianism a strong faith. That book, though, does have the ability to help clarify your thinking, suggest questions to consider and, aye, to meditate upon. Most sacred texts have that property, and I suppose one may do as well as another. There was a time when I thought as you do, but now I'm finding more and more good stuff in the philosophical verses of the Bible (the legalistic ones being mainly relevant to that time and that place). I'm particularly fond of, if but little schooled in, Proverbs and the Psalms this way. I just read through Ps. 18, just for fun. There are times when one must remark, with James Michener, "Ours is a very gutsy religion."

Right and wrong are issues of perspective.

Harmony is more important.

Steve

Some are moral absolutists, some are not. I am. And harmony only reliably occurs associated with good in any case.