Who Supports the War(s) - Page 25

warch · 12-16-2002, 11:24 AM

Quote:

good debate pushes buttons because when the arguments make sense they threaten our views.

Nah. Its the senselessness and limited understanding that I find button-pushing- The lack of sensible debate. That, coupled with the self-righteousness of your proselytizing- like you're reading from a tract. Plenty of people around here with views drastically different from my own, but they make their cases well, and I respect that.

Quote:

don't worry, I've been called a lot worse by a lot more threatened.

Well then....I'm glad?

I would say I was more intolerant than ever threatened.

You say schools should teach only FACTS but not facts like global warming. Hmm. Why don't you want your son to learn,to read, write, or calculate about recycling? Wouldnt that action help assuage fear, rather than ignoring or denying the problem? Or sex ed? I just dont get the threat. Is the evil agenda you mention wanting to prepare your kid to be responsible for his own consumption of resources, or preparing him to live by not contracting a STD, or preparing him to not hang himself if he's called a "fag"?
You're the one who pointed out that knowledge is power.

elSicomoro · 12-16-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
So, global warming is just an opinion, eh?

Yep...another opinion created by commies like you!

Now I'm going to have to call the FBI on you for your unamerican BS. Then I'll have to let OHS know that jag should never be allowed in this country. And since the UK is sniffing up our asses, we'll get him booted from there and every other Commonwealth country except his own.

It's for your own good...surrender your mind to the finality of the obvious.

juju · 12-16-2002, 01:51 PM

Those damned scientists! Always spouting off their agenda driven opinions. Where's the evidence?

headsplice · 12-16-2002, 03:03 PM

I was going to try and stay out of this, but I just can't. Admit folks, Cairo is the big, fat, juicy crackrock of the Cellar. You just can't get enough.

Cairo:
Give me an example of a fact. Anything. I will then show you that that fact is not, in fact, a fact. It really isn't that hard.
In fact,
[challenge]
Show me a fact.
[caveat] don't give me something that necessitates disproving a communicative assumption (i.e., 1+1=2). It can be done, but it's irritating and a waste of everyone's time.
[/caveat]
[/challenge

The basic idea is that communication necessarily involves interpretation. You are not communicating in a vacuum. You are communicating as a part of a conversation, within a particular culture. That means that you are accepting conventions about what you should say and how. How you deal with those conventions is an extremely personal thing (so personal, that no two people do it exactly the same way).
What does this mean to you in your particular situation?
It means that even though the original texts may be in the ancient Hebrew, the fact that you are not an ancient Hebrew necessitates that there be some interpretation on your part (assuming that YOU are reading the ancient Hebrew, and not a translation, in which case you are interpreting what someone else has interpreted. Neat, huh?)

And now (for something completely different), as a theological question:
Is there a knowable God?
God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent in the Judeo-Christian theology. So, given this completely different level of awareness, above and beyond what humans can comprehend, can we TRULY understand God (or, are humans just some sort of vastly incomprehensible cosmic fart joke)?

Finally:
Do you live under a bridge? Because you honestly look like a troll to me.

Undertoad · 12-16-2002, 08:14 PM

Cairo, I have two separate points which require your attention.

1. Many times we must work out truth on our own, but more often facts are communicated to us via other people, and those people bring their point of view and frame of reference to the table. In order to truly understand what is going on, unless you are involved, you benefit from multiple points of view. Even though one or more of the points may well be wrong, except in the case of knowable, provable items, one is enlightened immeasurably by the addition of a second point of view. This is why it is a bad idea for the school to tell your son that they are dispensing the sole truth. But it is also why it is a bad idea for YOU to tell your son that YOU are the final arbiter of truth.

Otherwise, the first time he figures out something where you're wrong, the entire stack of cards will come tumbling down.

2. There are hundreds of points upon which the bible directly contradicts itself. For example, here's one list of 962 direct contradictions. Sure, some of them are nit-picky, but it's not that long a book and one would think He would be a stronger writer. If the bible is really meant to be instructions from a loving supreme being on how to avoid eternal torture, you'd think He could get His stuff together in a way that doesn't need much translation or interpretation and is understandable by all. It is, after all, rather important.

Radar · 12-16-2002, 09:55 PM

Quote:

I've already proven existence of Historical remains found by scientists, and our Founding Fathers agreed that the 10 Commandments are instructions by God...Proving that God's words and will as written in the book of prophecy is true, is proving that God exists.

You haven't proven anything. Where are the remains of the body of Jesus of Nazareth? How about the bodies of the apostles? I know that the body of Paul is supposed to be buried under the vatican but that hasn't been proven. What remains have you proven to exist? As far as I can tell you haven't provided a single shred of physical evidence. The dead sea scrolls aren't proof of anything, nor is the bible.

By the way, our founding fathers DID NOT AGREE THAT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS WERE INSTRUCTIONS BY GOD!! The overwhelming majority of our founding fathers WERE NOT CHRISTIANS, they were almost all Unitarians and Diests. Neither of these is Christian or is based on the bible or the 10 commandments.

And even if the founding fathers did believe in god it wouldn't mean god exists. You haven't proven the existance of god, nor has anyone else in the history of the planet earth.

The United States was built on the principle of religous freedom. Both freedom of religion and freedom from it. Our founding fathers believed in NATURAL rights as described by Locke, not divine rights.

One of the founding fathers (in fact THE father of America) that actually was a Christian knew full well that our laws and our governement weren't based on the 10 commandments or any parts of Christianity said the following:

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
- George Washington

slang · 12-16-2002, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radar

You haven't proven anything.

<H4>Jesus Christ! How long are you two going to argue about this?....

</h4>

Radar · 12-16-2002, 11:17 PM

Until he admits the bible isn't an accurate historical document and that there is no physical proof of the existance of god.

Cam · 12-17-2002, 01:12 AM

Well then, you might as well start a thread labeled the never-ending argument. Don't you realize that there is no way anyone who believes in God is going to agree with you Radar, you cannot provide any proof that God doesn't exist, it's not possible, the same as no one can provide proof that God does exist. Attempting to get people to not believe their religion is like trying to make a tiger eat a carrot when there is a hunk of beef lying on the ground near it; it's not going to happen.

Moreover, asking someone to admit the bible isn't historical fact may be possible, but once again if someone believes it is so then most likely it's a deeply ingrained belief, you’re not going to change it. Believe me I've tried to change people religious beliefs if you can't do it in person there is no way in hell you're getting someone to do it online. Just accept that someone believes something different then you, it's not like your world is going to come crashing down around

Radar · 12-17-2002, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Don't you realize that there is no way anyone who believes in God is going to agree with you Radar, you cannot provide any proof that God doesn't exist, it's not possible, the same as no one can provide proof that God does exist.

You can't prove a negative. That's impossible. But luckily the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of those who believe and expect others to believe. I don't have to prove god doesn't exist, he (or anyone else who wants others to believe) must prove that god does exist.

If I claimed there was a purple gorilla that could fart flames and crap golden bricks running around the mountains and playing in his gingerbread pyramid that aliens created, I wouldn't expect anyone to believe me without actual proof. And the belief in an invisible, all powerful, all knowing, omni-present, creator of all things is just as unbelievable.

Quote:

Attempting to get people to not believe their religion is like trying to make a tiger eat a carrot when there is a hunk of beef lying on the ground near it; it's not going to happen.

I'm not asking anyone to not believe in god. Just that they don't expect me to believe in god without any physical evidence of the existence of the being of god. Not what they claim to be the deeds of god. But the actual entity of god. I'd also like them to admit the bible isn't historical fact which should be a given since it's so full of holes and contradictions.

slang · 12-17-2002, 02:27 AM

Quote:

If I claimed that I was a purple gorilla that could fart flames

Then you would be my little brother.

Radar · 12-17-2002, 10:27 AM

You misquoted me.

Undertoad · 12-17-2002, 10:51 AM

Quote:

If I claimed there was a purple gorilla that could fart flames and crap golden bricks running around the mountains and playing in his gingerbread pyramid that aliens created,

Wouldn't you be describing a Gamecube title?

Cam · 12-17-2002, 12:31 PM

Oh for the love of God Radar pull the stick out of your ass

headsplice · 12-17-2002, 02:19 PM

and it goes on and on my friends....
[THREAD HIJACK]
WARNING! To all of those faint of heart, weak of mind, body, or soul: DO NOT PROCEED. The following will most likely rupture major internal organs, causing you to bleed profusely from all sorts of unpleasant places. Your eyes will melt, your central nervous system will start doing things that it hasn't done since the last time you were hopped up on the Special K, you will probably start gibbering like you OD'd on percoset and lithium, you may begin to enjoy 'The View' and wonder why it isn't on more often, Jerry Springer will become your best friend in the whole world, you might start selling Amway products, you find the keys to your personal Nirvana (Nerdvana?) are available on eBay (with no reserve, and just one other bidder who appears to enjoy outbidding themselves), Garfield will be funny again, you will stop understanding the Simpsons, Pres.George Bush Jr. will become comprehensible and you will start to refer to him completely unironically as 'Our Fearless Leader,' sarcasm will be wasted on you, you will have an uncontrollable urge to drown puppy's and kitten's, children will scream at your face (and that is why I say, 'to the ears!'), you will never be wrong again, you will never fall in love, you will never have a broken heart.

You will die.

that is all.

12-16-2002, 01:51 PM	#363
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Those damned scientists! Always spouting off their agenda driven opinions. Where's the evidence? Last edited by juju; 12-16-2002 at 02:15 PM.

12-16-2002, 03:03 PM	#364
headsplice Relaxed Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 676	I was going to try and stay out of this, but I just can't. Admit folks, Cairo is the big, fat, juicy crackrock of the Cellar. You just can't get enough. Cairo: Give me an example of a fact. Anything. I will then show you that that fact is not, in fact, a fact. It really isn't that hard. In fact, [challenge] Show me a fact. [caveat] don't give me something that necessitates disproving a communicative assumption (i.e., 1+1=2). It can be done, but it's irritating and a waste of everyone's time. [/caveat] [/challenge The basic idea is that communication necessarily involves interpretation. You are not communicating in a vacuum. You are communicating as a part of a conversation, within a particular culture. That means that you are accepting conventions about what you should say and how. How you deal with those conventions is an extremely personal thing (so personal, that no two people do it exactly the same way). What does this mean to you in your particular situation? It means that even though the original texts may be in the ancient Hebrew, the fact that you are not an ancient Hebrew necessitates that there be some interpretation on your part (assuming that YOU are reading the ancient Hebrew, and not a translation, in which case you are interpreting what someone else has interpreted. Neat, huh?) And now (for something completely different), as a theological question: Is there a knowable God? God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent in the Judeo-Christian theology. So, given this completely different level of awareness, above and beyond what humans can comprehend, can we TRULY understand God (or, are humans just some sort of vastly incomprehensible cosmic fart joke)? Finally: Do you live under a bridge? Because you honestly look like a troll to me. __________________ Don't Panic

12-17-2002, 01:12 AM	#369
Cam dripping with ignorance Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Grand Forks ND Posts: 642	Well then, you might as well start a thread labeled the never-ending argument. Don't you realize that there is no way anyone who believes in God is going to agree with you Radar, you cannot provide any proof that God doesn't exist, it's not possible, the same as no one can provide proof that God does exist. Attempting to get people to not believe their religion is like trying to make a tiger eat a carrot when there is a hunk of beef lying on the ground near it; it's not going to happen. Moreover, asking someone to admit the bible isn't historical fact may be possible, but once again if someone believes it is so then most likely it's a deeply ingrained belief, you’re not going to change it. Believe me I've tried to change people religious beliefs if you can't do it in person there is no way in hell you're getting someone to do it online. Just accept that someone believes something different then you, it's not like your world is going to come crashing down around __________________ After the seventh beer I generally try and stay away from the keyboard, I apologize for what happens when I fail. Last edited by Cam; 12-17-2002 at 01:18 AM.

12-17-2002, 12:31 PM	#374
Cam dripping with ignorance Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Grand Forks ND Posts: 642	Oh for the love of God Radar pull the stick out of your ass __________________ After the seventh beer I generally try and stay away from the keyboard, I apologize for what happens when I fail.

12-17-2002, 02:19 PM	#375
headsplice Relaxed Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 676	This is is the thread that never ends.... and it goes on and on my friends.... [THREAD HIJACK] WARNING! To all of those faint of heart, weak of mind, body, or soul: DO NOT PROCEED. The following will most likely rupture major internal organs, causing you to bleed profusely from all sorts of unpleasant places. Your eyes will melt, your central nervous system will start doing things that it hasn't done since the last time you were hopped up on the Special K, you will probably start gibbering like you OD'd on percoset and lithium, you may begin to enjoy 'The View' and wonder why it isn't on more often, Jerry Springer will become your best friend in the whole world, you might start selling Amway products, you find the keys to your personal Nirvana (Nerdvana?) are available on eBay (with no reserve, and just one other bidder who appears to enjoy outbidding themselves), Garfield will be funny again, you will stop understanding the Simpsons, Pres.George Bush Jr. will become comprehensible and you will start to refer to him completely unironically as 'Our Fearless Leader,' sarcasm will be wasted on you, you will have an uncontrollable urge to drown puppy's and kitten's, children will scream at your face (and that is why I say, 'to the ears!'), you will never be wrong again, you will never fall in love, you will never have a broken heart. You will die. that is all. __________________ Don't Panic

12-16-2002, 08:14 PM	#365
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Cairo, I have two separate points which require your attention. 1. Many times we must work out truth on our own, but more often facts are communicated to us via other people, and those people bring their point of view and frame of reference to the table. In order to truly understand what is going on, unless you are involved, you benefit from multiple points of view. Even though one or more of the points may well be wrong, except in the case of knowable, provable items, one is enlightened immeasurably by the addition of a second point of view. This is why it is a bad idea for the school to tell your son that they are dispensing the sole truth. But it is also why it is a bad idea for YOU to tell your son that YOU are the final arbiter of truth. Otherwise, the first time he figures out something where you're wrong, the entire stack of cards will come tumbling down. 2. There are hundreds of points upon which the bible directly contradicts itself. For example, here's one list of 962 direct contradictions. Sure, some of them are nit-picky, but it's not that long a book and one would think He would be a stronger writer. If the bible is really meant to be instructions from a loving supreme being on how to avoid eternal torture, you'd think He could get His stuff together in a way that doesn't need much translation or interpretation and is understandable by all. It is, after all, rather important.

12-16-2002, 11:17 PM	#368
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Until he admits the bible isn't an accurate historical document and that there is no physical proof of the existance of god.

12-17-2002, 10:27 AM	#372
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	You misquoted me.

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