The Soul of Man Under Socialism

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by KGZotU

II don't know anything about your situation. You express dissatisfaction, however, and I'm saying that there is a path to your satisfaction that does not depend on anybody else's actions.

--Joe

That is certainly true, and helps me better understand what you meant.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I think that is one of the main reasons for happiness but doesn't explain everything. I personally believe that happiness comes from acceptance. You can have all the true friends in the world but that means nothing if you cannot accept yourself.

This is true as well, and I am sure that much of my unhappiness comes from not accepting myself.

You've all given me good things to think about.

No one or nothing can make anyone happy, happiness is a choice & irrelevant to this discussion.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Too many people handicap their climb out of poverty with a couple of kids, then turn around and blame the kids for ruining their lives. It's not the kids fault.
A single parent is really screwed because they get no help with child rearing while trying to go to school for a better job.


Don't forget "Middle Class" is a moving target. Plenty of people are having trouble staying in the middle class.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

A single parent is really screwed because they get no help with child rearing while trying to go to school for a better job.

This is a bit inaccurate, knowing the kind of financial aid single parents get, while a working young person who is trying to make it on their own, whose parents won't help, who have a car payment and an apartment, who pay their own insurance and generally take care of their lives can make very little money a year and not get a dime of federal or state grants. Also, a young person HAS to report parental income unless one of the following are true: They are 24 or older! They are married. They are orphans, wards of the court, or were until the age of 18. They are veterans or in active military service. OR, they have children for whom they provide at least 50% of the support. That support includes any welfare benefits. The only way out of providing parental information is through an appeal process that must include very well-documented third party proof of ABUSE or ABANDONMENT.The single parent, at this school, gets that one (or two, or three...)more "persons in household" that can make their school not only completely paid for...they get big refund checks from their pell grants every term. Some can quit their jobs when they add in some low interest student loans. Many make good of it, great to see. Many also try to become professional students,and when the feds finally say enough is enough...go to school the rest of your life but not on the govt's dime...they default on those loans with little to no repercussions.

Child care, too, is a huge component of the cost of attendance when figuring student aid.

I'm not saying single parents don't have it rough. I'm just saying the taxpayers without children foot a lot of bills (EIC where a student's total tax LIABILITY is NEGATIVE 6 grand or so on their tax forms is a great example) for these families. As far as I know, young single people didn't ask young single parents to have those children. Some single parents are victims of crappy circumstances...some make it a job and they get paid for it under all kinds of government programs...from housing to schooling.

Two not so hypothetical scenarios: (Please feel free to sub Johnny for Sally and vice-versa, because gender is irrelevant except for who actually bears children...I see single fathers often, too)

1) Johnny's parents are assholes. They treat him like a dog, and refuse to help him with anything. They don't abuse Johnny, they don't beat him...he's just a nuisance in their lives. Johnny moves out as soon as he can, living by flipping burgers at McD's. He works as many hours as possible to get enough money to live. Johnny knows he can do better, and decides to work on a nursing degree. Johnny applies for aid to help with school, and learns he HAS to provide parental information. At this point either a) parents refuse to provide info and JOhnny is fucked or b) Daddy works at GM making 35 bucks an hour and Johnny is fucked. His measly living and dad's paycheck are BOTH considered in the amount Johnny's "family" is expected to contribute to his education. Johnny is eligible for, at maximum...a 2625 student loan for the year, and only get this if his parents supplied info.

2) Sally lives in government subsidized housing, food stamps, govt health care. Sally made 1200 last year. Sally has two kids by the age of 19; her mother watches them most of the time. Sally decides to come to school. Sally reports the 1200 dollars she made last year, and the 2 kids. Sally gets an annual Pell grant of 4050, student loans up to 6625, state aid of 2190, TEAP funding of up to 1200, some other smaller grants. When all is said and done, Sally gets a refund check of a couple grand or more from the pell grant each semester. State grants are applied first and free up the federal pell grant funding which is given to the student...not to mention the 6625 loans she didn't need to touch for college expenses. Sally has tons of time to study: mom watches the kids. Sally flunks out and blames the college and the FA dept and the feds for not helping her out.

There are a million combinations of the above. Like I said, I see the good, I see the bad.

I love kids, I'm just saying there is a flip side to the poor single parent lament that I hear every day. Poor kids didn't ask for their circumstances, that's for sure, in either case.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

happiness is a choice & irrelevant to this discussion

Not really...we're talking about the government's role in society's well being. Agree or not, it's a lot harder to choose to be happy when you have no food or clothes as opposed to say...making your next Lexus payment. But, if you feel this discussion is also irrelevant then feel free to cut and paste and start another thread.

No, but what you choose to focus on, regardless of your situation, is up to you.
I know poor people who were sick but very happy and loving, who appreciated the blessings they had in their lives and I know and am related to miserable rich people who are healthy with everything anyone could want, but are miserable because they do not have more... no matter what they have and how many people love them they will be miserable because they choose to be egomaniacle megalomaniacs. Choice & irrelevant to this conversation.
Happiness is what you make of what you have not what you do not have.

[piercehawkeye45]

I think it is more underlying than that rkzenrage. Some people can see good in everything some people can't. While I agree that you have a lot more control over your happiness than you might think, but to be continuously optimistic is a trait not many have.

and am related to miserable rich people who are healthy with everything anyone could want, but are miserable because they do not have more

I was thinking about this earlier today. Maybe this has something to do with always being delusional and an inability to accept one's self in a psychological disorder like bulimia or anorexia?

Again, not can't/inability, choose not to.
Choice/free-will.
A lot of people in here have issues with the idea of accountability.

[piercehawkeye45]

First, we don't necessarily have free will.

Second, other factors occur that are out of someone’s control. You cannot control your subconscious, which, I think at least, is accountable for creating many obstacles involving happiness.

Happiness is not external, it is internal (just your perception)and a decision based solely on your priorities, unless you are insane.

[piercehawkeye45]

Exactly, but controlling yourself is the problem. In our world today we are trained to have unrealistic desires and goals, which can lead to obsessions and insanity. As long as we have these desires we cannot have true happiness (in my opinion at least) but the path to ridding these desires is much tougher than we imagine. I think it is possible for many to enjoy true happiness but I personally believe that many have strayed too far and cannot get rid of these obsessions without a full brainwashing.

Also, society would never allow everyone to get rid of these desires; it is like saying that everyone can get an A on a bell curve. These desires and goals are what fuels our economy and what has built our nation. We need these desires to fuel the economy and keep it in motion or America and every other nation would fall apart instantly.

Just because some have to work harder at something than others does not mean it is unfair or wrong.
Natural selection is true in all levels of life... we all have our handicaps and head-starts, just the way it is.
Level playing field is unnatural and should not be.
You can just choose to get rid of the desires, society presents them, you decide to accept them or not.
One can want a car without deciding to need it to be happy.
Again, accountability, you put it outside yourself, I do not.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Just because some have to work harder at something than others does not mean it is unfair or wrong.
Natural selection is true in all levels of life... we all have our handicaps and head-starts, just the way it is.
Level playing field is unnatural and should not be.

Where did you get this from? I know people are born better than others. I just believe that we should eliminate head starts so the true best can win.

You can just choose to get rid of the desires, society presents them, you decide to accept them or not.

Do you really think it is that easy? Buddhism is the search for this happiness and it is very rare to find a true Buddhist.

Unless you have an amazing ability to let go of desires, the average person can not let them go in an instant. We can pretend we do but it would tear us apart from the inside.

It is not an "amazing ability" it takes work and discipline, like all things worth doing and having.

I never said "better" I implied talent. I would never assign value to that.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

This is a bit inaccurate, knowing the kind of financial aid single parents get, ~snip~ The single parent, at this school, gets that one (or two, or three...)more "persons in household" that can make their school not only completely paid for...they get big refund checks from their pell grants every term. Some can quit their jobs when they add in some low interest student loans. Many make good of it, great to see. Many also try to become professional students,and when the feds finally say enough is enough...go to school the rest of your life but not on the govt's dime...they default on those loans with little to no repercussions.

Child care, too, is a huge component of the cost of attendance when figuring student aid. ~snip

Holy shit! Is this common? I mean you said, "at this school", so is this the rule rather than the exception, across the country? State schools? Harvard? Community colleges? This blows my mind.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Holy shit! Is this common? I mean you said, "at this school", so is this the rule rather than the exception, across the country? State schools? Harvard? Community colleges? This blows my mind.

Oh, no...not Harvard!

I said this school because, as a community college, we have relatively low tuition. There are schools nearby with even lower due to extensive funding from their larger cities. At a private school, all that money would barely make a dent. Private schools are able to offer a lot more campus based aid, though, due to many factors, one being alumni whose more elite degree affords them better job opportunities (but not always.) Then again, you're not going to see many students at Harvard with a HS GPA of 1.6, or a barely passing GED score. It's demographics. With those demographics come system players. Also with those demographics come the student mentioned earlier, say a single parent who successfully completes a nursing program and is able to make a better life for their families. That's when I love this job!

I just feel for the people who fall in the middle; I've often said if my ship ever comes in I would like to donate a scholarship for the students who don't make so little they're fully funded, but who don't make so much that paying for school is an easy task.