Perverting democracy for politics - Page 5

warch · 05-16-2007, 04:30 PM

this has got some legs...I hope.

Happy Monkey · 05-16-2007, 06:37 PM

I'd hope so, but I'm pretty sure I heard this story years ago. But now it's testimony instead of just a story, so we'll see.

Urbane Guerrilla · 05-17-2007, 10:41 AM

The Swift Boaters have never been refuted on any point of fact re Kerry. The credulous and slow of mind, of course, may believe otherwise.

It appears no one processed John Kerry's citations for any of his three Purple Hearts.

Happy Monkey · 05-17-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The Swift Boaters have never been refuted on any point of fact re Kerry.

Incorrect.

warch · 05-17-2007, 07:12 PM

Swiftboaters? geeze. spin city. If you are any form of patriotic American, UG, the revelations by former DAG Comey should alarm you far far more than Kerry's old medals.

I'm not fan of Ashcroft, but this makes him look like one righteous dude (and that's saying something) This ruthless unconstitutional illegal powergrab apparently made by Bush, Card, Gonzales, Addington and Cheney. then covered up using the power of red tape and information control, now comes to light. Its not about the legality of the wiretap program per se, its about the acts of executive government claiming to be above the law and proceeding to act above the law. That is monarchy.The cronyism and dishonor that allows these illegal acts to go un-investigated, unchecked, until a new congress has the power to pursue it. Seriously how can you not see this as impeachable stuff? How can you justify this politicization as national security?

You know, I may rethink my position on gun ownership.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-17-2007, 09:32 PM

I think the letters of executive privilege exemption Bush wrote, for every bill passed, are pretty damning.

warch · 05-18-2007, 09:41 AM

Come on now...you're just Bush bashing!

pourbill · 05-18-2007, 12:12 PM

I really don't know about the veracity of the "swift boaters" or the bloggers, but I personally witnessed inflated accounts of heroism to get medals for people during the Viet Nam conflict. A friend had been encouraged to embellish on an injury suffered in diving for cover by the company brass in order to get a medal for one of their own. This is not to diminish the majority of hard-won medals for real heros, but a lot of people manipulated facts in order to self-promote. I was always a bit skeptical of Sen. Kerry's awards.

warch · 05-18-2007, 12:30 PM

Ya think? Lets look at those recent Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients...Tenet, Bremer, Franks....Rumsfeld...as they resign in disgrace, let's reward their incompetence. Heckuva job, now go write your book.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-18-2007, 01:45 PM

Warch, is you besmirching our national heros? The very leaders of the Bush administration's efforts to stamp out freedom? Uh.... for the bad guys, I meant freedom for the bad guys.

05-18-2007, 02:05 PM

I love how Kerry is the bad guy for his multiple tours in Nam, but Bush's dodging service is a non-issue. He is a punk-ass, moron, bitch and should be treated as such.
Kerry served his country with distinction and the swift boat pussies are just envious, NOTHING more.

TheMercenary · 05-19-2007, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warch

Ya think? Lets look at those recent Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients...Tenet, Bremer, Franks....Rumsfeld...as they resign in disgrace, let's reward their incompetence. Heckuva job, now go write your book.

They resigned in disgrace? Where the hell did you get that?

warch · 05-21-2007, 10:15 AM

Disgrace? Their incompetence in prosecuting their respective jobs, weakening our national security, not comprehending the enemy or the complexity of the tasks at hand, not having the honor or strength to stand when it could have helped, and being forced out by political pressure and polls when the failures were too many, ("mistakes were made..." but by whom?) True, Bush was quite proud, apparently you are, too.
I suppose I have higher expectations and standards of competency from national leaders. To me they resigned not to have "more personal time with the family"...but because they failed.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18399374/site/newsweek/

TheMercenary · 05-21-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warch

Disgrace? Their incompetence in prosecuting their respective jobs, weakening our national security, not comprehending the enemy or the complexity of the tasks at hand, not having the honor or strength to stand when it could have helped, and being forced out by political pressure and polls when the failures were too many, ("mistakes were made..." but by whom?) True, Bush was quite proud, apparently you are, too.
I suppose I have higher expectations and standards of competency from national leaders. To me they resigned not to have "more personal time with the family"...but because they failed.

I don't agree. But that's cool. Franks certainly did not leave in disgrace. Tenet, Rummy, and Bremer became ineffective leaders and it was time to go. It is the natural order of things. Many people rise to levels of upper leadership and not always due to their own control, become the fall guys for others failings or for system failings. That goes with the territory. I think most people who do this for a living understand that. I doubt any of them are hidding in some kind of disgrace you want to apply to them. In fact, I bet they are doing quite well. In a very short time I will bet we will see a turn about in similar circumstances. If anyone was ever disgraced in office I would say it was Clinton when he was impeached by Congress, that had to be a tough day for him and his family. His legacy will always include stories about a Blue Dress and a young girl named Monica. Too bad because I think he did more than that. But that is history. When and if the Dems take office in 08 we will see the same thing happen again, only this time with different names and different faces.

warch · 05-21-2007, 11:07 AM

History indeed. It will be interesting to view the legacy of Bush and his crew. Funny you bring up Clinton! Lying about a blowjob seems like such small potatoes, now.

When I hear discussions of impeachment these days, its usually referenced closer to Nixon's abuses of power and politicization. Nixon's disgrace will always include stories of his direction of crooked activity, lies and unconstitutional power grabbing, overshadowing any other positives of his terms. And again, now they seem rather quaint.

If our medal of freedom honorees are just innocent the "fall guys", their failures just the natural order, is that really worthy of this highest civilian honor or yet another example of politicization, to the point where the thing loses all meaning in the cynicism?

05-16-2007, 06:37 PM	#62
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	I'd hope so, but I'm pretty sure I heard this story years ago. But now it's testimony instead of just a story, so we'll see. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

05-17-2007, 10:41 AM	#63
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	The Swift Boaters have never been refuted on any point of fact re Kerry. The credulous and slow of mind, of course, may believe otherwise. It appears no one processed John Kerry's citations for any of his three Purple Hearts. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

05-17-2007, 09:32 PM	#66
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I think the letters of executive privilege exemption Bush wrote, for every bill passed, are pretty damning. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-18-2007, 12:12 PM	#68
pourbill Do-er of Deeds Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: washington, missouri Posts: 41	I really don't know about the veracity of the "swift boaters" or the bloggers, but I personally witnessed inflated accounts of heroism to get medals for people during the Viet Nam conflict. A friend had been encouraged to embellish on an injury suffered in diving for cover by the company brass in order to get a medal for one of their own. This is not to diminish the majority of hard-won medals for real heros, but a lot of people manipulated facts in order to self-promote. I was always a bit skeptical of Sen. Kerry's awards. __________________ We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails

05-18-2007, 01:45 PM	#70
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Warch, is you besmirching our national heros? The very leaders of the Bush administration's efforts to stamp out freedom? Uh.... for the bad guys, I meant freedom for the bad guys. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-16-2007, 04:30 PM	#61
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	this has got some legs...I hope.

05-17-2007, 07:12 PM	#65
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Swiftboaters? geeze. spin city. If you are any form of patriotic American, UG, the revelations by former DAG Comey should alarm you far far more than Kerry's old medals. I'm not fan of Ashcroft, but this makes him look like one righteous dude (and that's saying something) This ruthless unconstitutional illegal powergrab apparently made by Bush, Card, Gonzales, Addington and Cheney. then covered up using the power of red tape and information control, now comes to light. Its not about the legality of the wiretap program per se, its about the acts of executive government claiming to be above the law and proceeding to act above the law. That is monarchy.The cronyism and dishonor that allows these illegal acts to go un-investigated, unchecked, until a new congress has the power to pursue it. Seriously how can you not see this as impeachable stuff? How can you justify this politicization as national security? You know, I may rethink my position on gun ownership.

05-18-2007, 09:41 AM	#67
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Come on now...you're just Bush bashing!

05-18-2007, 12:30 PM	#69
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Ya think? Lets look at those recent Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients...Tenet, Bremer, Franks....Rumsfeld...as they resign in disgrace, let's reward their incompetence. Heckuva job, now go write your book.

05-18-2007, 02:05 PM	#71
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I love how Kerry is the bad guy for his multiple tours in Nam, but Bush's dodging service is a non-issue. He is a punk-ass, moron, bitch and should be treated as such. Kerry served his country with distinction and the swift boat pussies are just envious, NOTHING more.

05-21-2007, 10:15 AM	#73
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Disgrace? Their incompetence in prosecuting their respective jobs, weakening our national security, not comprehending the enemy or the complexity of the tasks at hand, not having the honor or strength to stand when it could have helped, and being forced out by political pressure and polls when the failures were too many, ("mistakes were made..." but by whom?) True, Bush was quite proud, apparently you are, too. I suppose I have higher expectations and standards of competency from national leaders. To me they resigned not to have "more personal time with the family"...but because they failed.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18399374/site/newsweek/

05-21-2007, 11:07 AM	#75
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	History indeed. It will be interesting to view the legacy of Bush and his crew. Funny you bring up Clinton! Lying about a blowjob seems like such small potatoes, now. When I hear discussions of impeachment these days, its usually referenced closer to Nixon's abuses of power and politicization. Nixon's disgrace will always include stories of his direction of crooked activity, lies and unconstitutional power grabbing, overshadowing any other positives of his terms. And again, now they seem rather quaint. If our medal of freedom honorees are just innocent the "fall guys", their failures just the natural order, is that really worthy of this highest civilian honor or yet another example of politicization, to the point where the thing loses all meaning in the cynicism?

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