Sheriff calls for guns on campus

[Flint]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

It is not up to others to say what a free person needs.

Within reason, right? Oh, wait...what is reasonable?

Oh. I guess we have to discuss that part and come to an agreement. There is no black and white answer.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

It is not up to others to say what a free person needs.

Good call rkzenrage. That bears repeating. The idea that we need to make criminal friendly areas because citizens are not to be trusted really burns my shorts. I don't want a heavy police presence, that is a sign of failing top heavy civilization.

Originally Posted by Flint

Within reason, right? Oh, wait...what is reasonable?

Oh. I guess we have to discuss that part and come to an agreement. There is no black and white answer.

Rocket launchers don't fit in my briefcase or backpack.

[Flint]

I got a rocket launcher in my britches.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I agree, but... there's this nagging memory of college kids away from home for the first time, binge drinking and being nuts. Even as the exception they would be scary.

[deadbeater]

I say go all the way with a pocket nuke.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

(Snort.)

[BigV]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Ok, maybe I was leaning more towards bigger campuses for that argument.

What sums my argument up is, the good of putting guns on campuses will not outweigh the bad. The chances of a shooting on campus occurring is one in a million and then the chances of actually being able to stop it is another one in a million. The chances of some fucking prick getting a gun, getting drunk, and using it to show off or intimidate others is much higher. I'm not saying that will happen a lot but the chances are much greater than actually stopping a school shooting for various reasons. And, as I've said many times, campuses do a lot for protection so you do not need one if you use the resources they provide you.

Well done, sir.

There's no denying the truth of your remarks--it's happening already on and off campuses. The combination of new-found freedom from parental oversight, youthful inexperience in many things, alcohol, and the frequently overwhelming and overstimulating campus life is already an explosive mixture. To add more firearms to this would be a spark to a fire.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

That many states restrict handgun ownership, and thus extensively CCW, to age 21 and over does pose a practical mitigation of this problem, though. As a onetime college student myself, I'm not at all certain how severe or immediate such a problem might be. Then too, college was in Arizona.

[Ibby]

Yeeup, that's right, y'can go buy yer shawtgun AND yer booze when y'turn 21!

*slaps forehead*

[WabUfvot5]

Have any of you ever seen the cops have to take down a crazed student at school? I have. To be truthful I'm really glad that nobody involved or around had a gun.

Let's see... in college you have:
kids away from their parents (many for the first time)
students taking drugs and also selling drugs to other students
the pressure of tests / grades
mental problems developing or worsening (sometimes due to drugs)

And the solution is to add guns to all this?!?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Jebediah, have you ever considered you'd want a defense against all that you listed, should worse come to worst? Must you allow yourself to be murdered because you obeyed a rule that helps you die, or should you take some other path that helps you live?

You already know my thinking on the subject, and the qualms of those disagreeing with that are not sufficient to move me. Their thinking does not persuade someone of sufficient understanding.

Do keep in mind please that a gun out is not necessarily a gun fired, and that a gun fired is not necessarily going to end in a homicide of any description. Really, the civil context for use of deadly force is well worked out, and well understood by those who are proactive in defense of self and other.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

...should worse come to worst?

I like your English.


I find it worrisome that people keep finding special cases where victim disarmament is needed. The basic argument on this one is that college students are too immature to possess a weapon. This is to be expected in a society which is killing off the remnants of individual responsibility. My Dad lived in a time and place where the rifle team could carry their arms on the school bus. We live in a world where adults can't be trusted to carry at all. Today, the police and criminals are armed to the teeth while honest citizens acknowlege their impotence in the face of violence. Personal responsibility, under attack from so many quarters, is on its way out.

[DanaC]

I find the idea of universities being a place where people routinely go armed really difficult to get to grips with. Seems entirely incongruous to me.

[Griff]

I guess the argument is routine vs. special case. Routine would hopefully mean sensible and trained, but we all know the reality. Unfortunately, the special case includes only cops, nutters, and nutter cops. The pragmatist sees that guns don't belong in that environment but that means leaving people exposed. I'd rather the individual student make the call and irresponsible behavior, such as carrying drunk, be punished. We can create expectations for behavior or we can use force the control behavior, I'd prefer to see a creative use of expectations. The bottom line: I have no idea, we've got a diverse society where irresponsibility is often expected. The right thing and the reasonable thing can be in conflict especially considering long term vs. short term visions for society.