Sheriff calls for guns on campus

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I find the idea of universities being a place where people routinely go armed really difficult to get to grips with. Seems entirely incongruous to me.

The entire notion of an armed citizenry would seem at best incongruous to most anyone not from this country and a fair number of folks in and from this country.

But even tho I advocate gun ownership, I don't think guns belong on state-run college campuses any more than they belong in other state-run institutions like the DMV or the office of state/local government. Private universities are a question I won't address without thinking about it some more. I don't think someone should be issued a permit to own a firearm unless they live on private property (rented or owned). Students in state schools living in the dorm should not be issued a permit unless they also live in that state and agree to store the gun at home. Commuting students who live off campus should not be denied a permit. And none of the students should be permitted to bring their guns on the campus. Virginia Tech notwithstanding. And I'm one person removed from at least three of the victims.

I support gun ownership but I also think its ok to have places where you aren't allowed to bring your weapon(s).

[piercehawkeye45]

If the students want guns on campus, let them vote for it.

[Griff]

I'm not sure voting on other peoples rights is a good thing. *shrug*

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If the students want guns on campus, let them vote for it.

Its state property so its up to the state. I don't think the students should have any say in the matter.

If there is to be a vote, it should be statewide for all registered voters of that state. A referendum, I believe it is called.

[Griff]

That is an interesting idea linking carrying to property, but since the roadways are state property couldn't that eliminate all off property carrying?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Its state property so its up to the state. I don't think the students should have any say in the matter.

If there is to be a vote, it should be statewide for all registered voters of that state. A referendum, I believe it is called.

I don't like the idea of someone who will never visit or be part of my college campus to have a say on what my "rights" are to own a gun at my college campus. It is an issue that is very personal to the students so it should be in the hands of the students and people who are part of the university, no one else.

If you don't think students are mature enough to have the final say, we don't have the maturity carry a gun on campus. No double standards.

[Beestie]

If its a state college then its not your campus. Its state property just like any other state property. State property is "owned" by all the citizens of the state therefore all citizens should be given the right to choose. If you are not an out-of-state student then you also get a vote. If you are an out of state student then you have an obligation to obey the laws of that state without objecting since your decision to enter that state was voluntary.

And the phrase "who will never visit or be part of my college campus" has very little merit really since its a state good and any state citizen can use or not use it at his/her discretion at any time. And as a state asset, the rules concerning its use is a matter for the state to decide which flows through to the citzens thereof. That's what elections are for - pick the candidate who will craft (or uncraft) legislation that suits you.

We can't be deferring to arbitrary sub groups to write their own laws. That would produce horrificly negative consequences that, I think, you have yet to consider.

[piercehawkeye45]

When you get guns allowed in the white house or an elementry school maybe I'll try to see your point.

You don't know the conditions of my college campus and what if guns prove to be more hurtful than helpful? But that doesn't matter does it?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Griff

That is an interesting idea linking carrying to property, but since the roadways are state property couldn't that eliminate all off property carrying?

Yes it does. Without a CC permit, there are very strict guidelines for carrying weapons in motor vehicles, which is the method of choice for most. I don't think they bother the Amish buggies too much.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Well, pierce, I cannot teach you not to take counsel of your fears -- but I'd suggest that you not.

Meanwhile, I see no valid reason for me to take counsel of your fears either. I know how I'd behave, and how well I'd behave.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Griff

I like your English.

Thanks!

I find it worrisome that people keep finding special cases where victim disarmament is needed.

Worrisome indeed -- I find it maddening, actually. This sort of thing is almost always an exercise in intellectual dishonesty, ill-disguised prejudice, and hoplophobia unbecoming an adult. Such "special cases" must be viewed with deep suspicion, and most generally if not universally vetoed.

Today, the police and criminals are armed to the teeth while honest citizens acknowlege their impotence in the face of violence. Personal responsibility, under attack from so many quarters, is on its way out.

Not while such as we still breathe. We shall push it back.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If the students want guns on campus, let them vote for it.

Again, and again and again... the US is NEVER about the majority voting away the rights of the minority.

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Jebediah, have you ever considered you'd want a defense against all that you listed, should worse come to worst? Must you allow yourself to be murdered because you obeyed a rule that helps you die, or should you take some other path that helps you live?

I've lived through plenty, tyvm. Even somebody trying to crack my skull open while I was asleep. For some strange reason I'm glad he didn't have a gun. How silly of me. Almost as silly as thinking a gun would have helped me in that case.

You're from CA, so I'd expect you remember or at least heard of the riots that took place at many campuses. What do you think would have happened if students were armed?

You already know my thinking on the subject, and the qualms of those disagreeing with that are not sufficient to move me. Their thinking does not persuade someone of sufficient understanding.

Wasn't under any illusion it would.

Do keep in mind please that a gun out is not necessarily a gun fired, and that a gun fired is not necessarily going to end in a homicide of any description. Really, the civil context for use of deadly force is well worked out, and well understood by those who are proactive in defense of self and other.

You're more than correct that a gun out is not necessarily a gun fired. I argue that college is a unique place full of pressures / stress and mostly young folk figuring out how to deal with all that stress. I've been witness to many a fight over various things and many a drug-sale and a few breakdowns. To me guns are not a good solution. Arm the campus police, arm the teachers, arm fucking robots for all I care - but not young adults under pressure.

Another semi-related question for you UG: have you been out and about and come across some angry mofo blasting their radio (I believe the atrocities are known as boom cars) loud enough to rattle loose parts while staring down whomever they see? It's rather common around this area. Would you be so bold as to tell one of those clowns to knock it off?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Again, and again and again... the US is NEVER about the majority voting away the rights of the minority.

I can agree for the social right of self-preservation but not to hold guns. If you are worried about your protection and the university does not offer something to compensate for a gun, then your point is valid. If the university does offer something in compensation, then the point of owning a gun is not about protection but usually about power. Power is never a good enough reason to protect someone's rights from being voted away by the majority.

You also have to remember that the crime committed at universities is usually different than crimes committed at other places in a city. For example, early last year a group of kids (8-10 of them) would go out at night and then beat random people with baseball bats until they had to go to the hospital. If guns were allowed those kids would certainly have guns too. A gun would not only be ineffective in that situation, but deadly to both groups. The other situation usually happens if someone is alone at night. Your chances of getting robbed or hurt decline dramatically if you stay in groups or have an escort. These apply to most safe, bigger colleges by the way.

[wolf]

Police, including campus police, have no legal obligation to actually protect you, no matter what is says on the side of their cars.