Evolutionary Science-v- Creationism

[skysidhe]

I am going to start wearing Oliver buttons.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Sorry, I thought that's what 16-year-olds already did.

Nope, most people don't tell their kids "this is what your mom and/or I believe, that is what some people believe, some other's believe that other thing, some don't believe in any religion and one day you will decide what to believe or not to for yourself" like they should. Most try to brainwash their kids like tyrants. Cowards don't trust their kids to make the right decisions for themselves, no faith in what they state is the one "true path", imagine that?

[DanaC]

Cowards don't trust their kids to make the right decisions for themselves,

Okay, I have to take exception to that. I'd say my views on religion are probably quite well known by some of the regulars, but for the record I am an atheist; I believe that religion is a negative force within the world and I hate the idea of children being indoctrinated into what I consider to be an enormous and damaging con-trick. That said.....the people who raise their children with a strong faith are generally (I believe) doing so out of a profound sense of responsibility to their offspring. Obviously within any one cohort of children raised within a faith, there will be some whose parents are so overbearing that they are damaged psychologically, but that's the case in any cohort of any, or no, faith. The vast majority of parents attempt to raise their children in such a way that they have the requisite tools and resources to be successful and/or happy adults. To suggest that someone who believes that toolkit should include a spiritual dimension is a coward for including it in their child's upbringing, is unfair.

If you fear God (and I use that term in its original sense, rather than the more modern usage) then surely you would be a poor parent if you did not prepare your child for adulthood in a world in which that God is manifest. If you believe in a less traditional and more personal spirituality then you would likely wish your child to discover their spirituality for themself. If, however, you believe in a God whose existence is defined and interpreted through the theological structures of an organised church, surely the sensible thing to do as a parent would be to introduce your child to that church and its structures from an early age. If you believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell, and that the way to the former is through acceptance of God's will or Christ's sacrifice, then surely the most loving thing to do as a parent is to ensure your child has access to the means of salvation.

On a much simpler level, and to be fair to parents of whatever faith, raising children is a difficult thing. You do not become a parent and suddenly slough off your own hang-ups, desires, cultural norms and perspectives. You do not suddenly become an objective outsider to that child's upbringing. You will therefore bring something of yourself to that child's raising. If religion is a large part of who you are, then you are likely to bring religion into that child's life.

We teach our children the concept of right and wrong, how to cross a road safely and whether to value education. For someone who considers religion to be an essential part of life, it would surely seem an abrogation of parental duty not to teach that too.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

like they should

Once again, you are telling other people (or at least telling us) how other people should raise their kids.

Cowards don't trust other parents to make the right decisions for their families, no faith in what they state is the one "true path", imagine that?

Edited for establishment of irony. If what you believe (i.e., parents should "tell their kids 'this is what your mom and/or I believe,'" etc.) is truly the best way to raise children, then surely over time it will establish itself as the most successful cultural value, right? Or do you not trust most adults to make the right decisions for themselves?

[Happy Monkey]

First the Darwinists, now the Galileoists are stifling academic debate!

[queequeger]

My parents, both being atheist, sent me to church and catholic school until I was a junior and begged to go to public school. Whether they did this out of some sense of "a balanced world view" or to appease my mother's maniacally Catholic parents, I don't know. All I know is that I can't say it was the end of the world.

That said.....the people who raise their children with a strong faith are generally (I believe) doing so out of a profound sense of responsibility to their offspring.

I have pretty much identical views on religion as you, Dana, and this quote sums up why I can't get too pissed at people for sending their children to church. If you believe that people who don't go to church burn for all eternity in a giant oven, it would be pretty shitty to force your child into that state.

And it is for THAT reason that I will tell my child exactly what I think, and that what Mrs. Praise-Jesus down the street says is absurd for reasons A-D. And hopefully my child won't be duped by the guys standing on the corner with signs that say "God Hates ______".

[Happy Monkey]

Betcha didn't know what really happened to the dinosaurs.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Okay, I have to take exception to that. I'd say my views on religion are probably quite well known by some of the regulars, but for the record I am an atheist; I believe that religion is a negative force within the world and I hate the idea of children being indoctrinated into what I consider to be an enormous and damaging con-trick. That said.....the people who raise their children with a strong faith are generally (I believe) doing so out of a profound sense of responsibility to their offspring. Obviously within any one cohort of children raised within a faith, there will be some whose parents are so overbearing that they are damaged psychologically, but that's the case in any cohort of any, or no, faith. The vast majority of parents attempt to raise their children in such a way that they have the requisite tools and resources to be successful and/or happy adults. To suggest that someone who believes that toolkit should include a spiritual dimension is a coward for including it in their child's upbringing, is unfair.

If you fear God (and I use that term in its original sense, rather than the more modern usage) then surely you would be a poor parent if you did not prepare your child for adulthood in a world in which that God is manifest. If you believe in a less traditional and more personal spirituality then you would likely wish your child to discover their spirituality for themself. If, however, you believe in a God whose existence is defined and interpreted through the theological structures of an organised church, surely the sensible thing to do as a parent would be to introduce your child to that church and its structures from an early age. If you believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell, and that the way to the former is through acceptance of God's will or Christ's sacrifice, then surely the most loving thing to do as a parent is to ensure your child has access to the means of salvation.

On a much simpler level, and to be fair to parents of whatever faith, raising children is a difficult thing. You do not become a parent and suddenly slough off your own hang-ups, desires, cultural norms and perspectives. You do not suddenly become an objective outsider to that child's upbringing. You will therefore bring something of yourself to that child's raising. If religion is a large part of who you are, then you are likely to bring religion into that child's life.

We teach our children the concept of right and wrong, how to cross a road safely and whether to value education. For someone who considers religion to be an essential part of life, it would surely seem an abrogation of parental duty not to teach that too.

Telling a child how to behave morally, the golden rule, and teaching them religion have nothing to do with each other.
My wife is a theist and is not indoctrinating my son and feels no need to.
There is NO reason to.
In fact teaching a child that if they sin they will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is child abuse.
Tell me, if someone raised their kids with a bunch of false beliefs like cars could actually fly but they just didn't when she was looking at them for no real reason or that she would one day grow wings and be able to fly... no reason to criticize them right?
Just because a lot of people tell their kids something that no one can verify does not make it ok or any any less a lie especially when the book they use and want the kid to learn is full of mass murder, genocide, incest with those they are supposed to be looking UP TO, Jesus telling them to hate their families and much, MUCH more.
Sure, tell the kids about religion, I say all of it. Tell them about it, the good and bad and let them decide on their own when they are old enough to understand.
Why bother them with it when they are young? There is just no point.

[Happy Monkey]

H. R. Giger, eat your heart out! With both sets of jaws.

[BigV]

heard it on npr this am... maxdoublepluscool/scary.

is it just me or does the profile of that creature's head resemble the nose/cockpit profile of the new hondajet?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Pharyngeal jaws is just what I'd expect from those sneaky Japs.



I can't believe spell-check didn't even blink at pharyngeal.

Why do people laugh at creationists?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=istxUVBZD2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdEZTdOlGss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFeVwuJB7I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvprBLhJx_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKdfeP1sGIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6_o1GxgNMQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3nvH6gfrTc

Another... drier, but good stuff.

Darwin's Dangerous Idea--Dan Dennet Talks Evolution
Professor Dennett is a prominent and highly respected American philosopher from Tufts University, where his research centers on philosophy of mind, philosophy of science and philosophy of biology, particularly as those fields relate to evolutionary biology and cognitive science. Professor Dennett is a prolific writer, producing countless academic papers and articles, and both academic and "popular" books. His popular books include Consciousness Explained (1992); Freedom Evolves (2003); and, Darwin Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meaning of life (1996)—which he draws on heavily for this talk.

His most recent OUTSTADING book was, Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon (2006)—a "must read."

Professor Dennett is an outspoken non-believer. He is a high profile atheist, active skeptic, prominent secular-humanist, and an indefatigable advocate of the "Brights."

He is a true champion for the cause!

It is my hope that Professor Dennett's lecture will be both interesting, AND also help equip my fellow rational atheists and secular humanists, with addition conversational ammunition for use in debate with our deluded Judeo-Christian-Islamic creationist foes.

I will upload this talk in its entirety; however, due to YouTube© time restrictions, this talk will consist of eleven parts. For ease of viewing, I will upload each subsequent part as a video response to the previous.

Enjoy the lecture and the enlightenment!

This video lecture is available in full at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3945995297&hl=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrLiVn4RGKc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTtM1A2PPsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgz9J0I0Rmc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11yS_w9487E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdXmHgNx-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybXxuuivRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIDZoVJjQFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Vh8ucPmfc

[Happy Monkey]