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#151 |
in a mood, not cupcake
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,034
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Okay, I am such the third wheel here. tw, take my whip...please.
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#152 |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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#153 |
Non-Newbie Sort
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6
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We claim to be a civilized society. To use torture for any purpose is to give up that civilization and become as barbaric as our adversaries. The entire Bill of Rights is being challenged now all on the grounds that circumstances allow the government to make new rules. No, the end doesn't justify the means. No, might doesn't make right. Just say no to what the Administration is doing.
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#154 |
Person who doesn't update the user title
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,674
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Too many people here aren't interested in humanity's cause, which is democracy's cause, which is America's cause -- this is not open to rational dispute, after all -- winning.
Shame on all these people.
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Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. |
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#155 | |
trying hard to be a better person
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 16,493
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Quote:
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Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber |
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#156 |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posts: 21,393
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How would you know about my boner?
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Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012! |
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#157 |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posts: 21,393
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Which is why we continually pull out and never finish these messes we start. We can only win quickly by conducting the war to win. All war is barbaric. You must take the fight to the enemy in a manner he understands, if barbarism is the method, so be it.
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Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012! |
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#158 | |
still eats dirt
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Why doesn't our military do these things if they are the methods required to win? |
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#159 |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posts: 21,393
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1) Yes. But I think if it were done in a clandestine manner it would be very effective.
2) I think you already know the answer to it.
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Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012! |
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#160 |
still eats dirt
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,031
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#161 |
Franklin Pierce
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
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Its because we need popular support and are expected to act justified and they don't. It would be like comparing a community known buisness owner who is in debt and a homeless man with no family in debt. The business man will not go to the extremes as the homeless man because he has much more to lose if caught while the homeless man probably doesn't have much if anything to lose, making him much more likely to go to dangerous extremes for the money.
If the United States starts torturing innocent people (*stands in front of Gitmo*) and we are found out, our support will plummet and people will very quickly turn against us while no one supports Al Qaeda so it doesn't matter what they do, everyone will still hate them. |
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#162 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Quote:
At least for those of us with ethics. Also, at that point we have no right to complain about what they are doing to others in any way. |
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#163 | |
still eats dirt
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
...and torture will not remain secret if used, just as it has not in this war so far, nor in any other war. The worst atrocities committed against human beings, the war crimes the US stands against and actively wants to stop, have always managed to come to light at some point. Want to keep it all a secret? Kill your captors, including the innocent ones that didn't have the information you were looking for. If the reason to torture is to support the war, to end it faster, and that the ends justify the means, then we really need to think ahead to what the supposed final goal of this set of conflicts is: to end terrorism and support democracy. If we're going to use force to do this, then we need to do it right. Just as our military has evolved to fight these new battles against people that are not members of any army, it absolutely must evolve further to look to the long term consequences of its actions, how those actions are received by the people they effect, and what the response will be. You can torture for information you think might save a life, but no one should be surprised when the ranks of terrorists/anti-US groups swell when the news spreads that the coming liberators will beat to within an inch of your life to get at information if they think you have it. |
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#164 |
Person who doesn't update the user title
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,674
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Ali, just why do you suppose I might have it, hmm?
![]() I'm not hearing enough enthusiasm for breaking the undemocrats, wiping away their legacy of oppression. As you know, it's dishonest to say I'm talking about Republican Party members.
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Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. |
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#165 |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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This was the spirit and tone of rhetoric also used by Hitler to subvert the German government. Hitler also insisted that he and his party were the only true patriotic Germans. If he was not posting a political agenda, then UG would have called them Democrats - not undemocrats. Honesty becomes a victim when political agendas are more important.
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