Is there free will in heaven? - Page 9

Flint · 08-04-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

not magic. abstract. the mind exists in abstraction. the brain exists in nature.

I would say that the "abstract" operates on a level of nature that we haven't deciphered yet.

That doesn't excuse these "abstract" qualities from behaving according to deterministic laws. It just means that we don't understand the interactions that produce them, therefore they appear outside the realm of determinism--when viewed with our limited perceptive tools.

skysidhe · 08-04-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

something doesn;t jive here. you won;t gamble because you're afraid of losing the bet, right? you imply that you believe in god just in case it turns out to be true. Enough to use it as an argument, at least.

but is it faith in spite of the fact that you MUST have it? If you have to have faith, and have to believe to get in, how do you know you haven;t just done a good job of tricking yourself into believing that you truly believe. How many "christians" are just going through the motions "just in case?" they go to church, they follow the rules, but maybe they doubt it a little.....maybe they think ther might be some truth to another religion, too. Is it enough to SAY you believe?

I feel as strongly as any bible thumper does about my beliefs, yet, as I said, there is a small kernel of doubt. always. maybe the millions of christians are right, and this sucks, but this is how it is, and i'm going to burn in hell. therefoer, my "faith" in what I believe is not absolute. does a christian's faith have to be absolute? what if you're having a "bad faith day" when you happen to die?

I hope this illustrates to you the ridiculous nature of these little rules most conventional religions employ. Live as a good christian, in as much as it makes you stronger and wiser, but dont tell me im gonna burn cuz i dont like your flavor of ice cream.

i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???

I am in agreement fully. I have had posted on these kind of subjects in the past and frankly I'm burn't out on them. You have said it all so completely for me that even if I wanted to add something substantial I'd just be making a position which would seem rather redundant since your statements have embodied everything I believe anyway. Esp. the bold font part.
I can't tell you how many times those same thoughts have gone round in my heart and mind.

Good subject to read other peoples views too though!

Clodfobble · 08-04-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

That doesn't excuse these "abstract" qualities from behaving according to deterministic laws. It just means that we don't understand the interactions that produce them, therefore they appear outside the realm of determinism--when viewed with our limited perceptive tools.

Except for all those things in physics that we already know about that don't behave according to deterministic laws. What if our free will is subject to quantum probabilities? Not only is it not pre-determined, it can't be determined from the outside... which sounds a lot like "free" to me.

Flint · 08-04-2008, 12:15 PM

Quantum mechanics is often pseudo-scientifically referenced as a cure for all of western science's wrong-thinking; but I think it makes an even worse case for free will than determinism. How do fuzzy, random possibilities translate into a cohesive "free" will?

Clodfobble · 08-04-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

fuzzy, random possibilities

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

when viewed with our limited perceptive tools

Flint · 08-04-2008, 12:28 PM

Cute. I'm operating on YOUR assumption that "we already know about" things that "don't behave according to deterministic laws."

If quantum possibilities are not deterministic, then they are random. Deterministic on a level that we don't understand yet is still deterministic--and was already included in my definition of deterministic.

The two main interpretations of quantum mechanics are the multiple universes theory and the must be observed before it pops into place theory. Neither one, taken to it's logical conclusion, produces a free will.

Clodfobble · 08-04-2008, 12:33 PM

Your mom is deterministic.

Flint · 08-04-2008, 12:40 PM

I got somethin' you can make a determination on right here.

lumberjim · 08-04-2008, 12:47 PM

it's fuzzy and random, too

SteveDallas · 08-04-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Your mom is deterministic.

wafflepirate · 09-01-2008, 02:55 PM

I think this is the only place and time we'll have free will, and that the development of our spirits will be determined in this life if at all,
and that every dimension of our existence hereafter will simply be a progression of our souls to infinity... forever.

So we won't have free will but will always be developing in some way.

Heaven as a cloudy place with angel wings is cute, but it would get dull after a while I think.

Ruminator · 09-03-2008, 04:06 PM

This is one long thread to read through.

There are a ton of thoughts I'd like to respond to, but it would take three evenings.

First, to answer the threads question in a way that hasn't yet been done- Yes, there will be be free will in Heaven.
But the inhabitants will be willingly exercising their free will within the boundaries of God's overall best will for them.
This should be pretty easy to do since God is a God of Love and His best will for them is what will give them the greatest, most joyous life possible, I would think.
But it won't be strumming a harp for all eternity in one long Praisefest!
That is not a biblical teaching at all, anywhere, that Heaven is a place where singing praises for all eternity is the main gig.
In fact where will christians exist after the New Creation? (see Revelations 21-22)
What will those who have learned to subject their will to God's will do throughout eternity since its not playing a harp and singing continuously?

Thank God for that!

Let me throw out another applicable thought that hasn't come up yet.

What is the difference between "believe", and "know" as applied to a personal religious "faith"?
Christians often fail to use "know" when it for some actually applies and can more clearly define their thoughts and experiences.
Ex.- if I know that a specific berry will make one sick from past personal experience, how does that compare to someones belief that the berry won't make one sick who hasn't experienced eating the berry?

DanaC · 09-03-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

What is the difference between "believe", and "know" as applied to a personal religious "faith"?

It's a matter of courteous interaction, and a way of shielding oneself from criticism. "I know", is perceived to be both arrogant and assailable. "I believe", shows humility and is wholly unassailable in our society. Most of us say we believe (that there is, or is not a god) when in truth most of us know (that there is, or is not, a god).

Ruminator · 09-03-2008, 06:27 PM

I hear you Dana and I appreciate where you are coming from, thank-you.

From your answer I think I need to make a signature about this.

I have learned that we can best understand one another in the "far from perfect" thing called communicating if we are as detailed and specific as possible with each other in what we say. It eliminates as much misunderstanding as possible.

I see, and use the word "know" in my talking with someone when it applies not as a word of carrying any emotion or attitude; but rather one of conveying a detailed, specific difference in meaning from "believe". There is a huge, nay "humongous" difference between the two words.
Each word carries a definitive difference in steps of degree. the same as the scientific steps of: (question, postulate, theorize, proof, know)
ex.- (question, think, believe, know)

If there is no chance of any one of us being able to know a specific something, I could see all of us not using the word because it wouldn't apply. But it is possible to not confer any attitude while using it.

I am old enough and have experienced many things enough to know more than many, and less than many others about all sorts of things. True of all of us to varying degrees.
Isn't that why we enjoy these forums? I love to learn from those around me, and if I can give something useful back in return we are twice blessed as I look it. I know I am.

Ruminator · 09-03-2008, 07:22 PM

Oh yea, I'll be the first to say that in using the word "know" with someone you are close to, and who knows you well; they have an obvious ability to understand you and how well you can correctly perceive reality.
Unfortunately here on the internet, we can only somewhat correctly understand each others honesty, and abilities to reason logically. But I still wouldn't want us to lose the value of the specific, detailed, difference in definitions. We can do our best by gleaning what we can from all of a member's posts. Plus we can always ask in the forums, or pm one another.

08-04-2008, 12:15 PM	#124
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Quantum mechanics is often pseudo-scientifically referenced as a cure for all of western science's wrong-thinking; but I think it makes an even worse case for free will than determinism. How do fuzzy, random possibilities translate into a cohesive "free" will? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-04-2008, 12:28 PM	#126
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Cute. I'm operating on YOUR assumption that "we already know about" things that "don't behave according to deterministic laws." If quantum possibilities are not deterministic, then they are random. Deterministic on a level that we don't understand yet is still deterministic--and was already included in my definition of deterministic. The two main interpretations of quantum mechanics are the multiple universes theory and the must be observed before it pops into place theory. Neither one, taken to it's logical conclusion, produces a free will. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-04-2008, 12:33 PM	#127
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Your mom is deterministic. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

08-04-2008, 12:40 PM	#128
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I got somethin' you can make a determination on right here. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-04-2008, 12:47 PM	#129
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	it's fuzzy and random, too __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

09-01-2008, 02:55 PM	#131
wafflepirate Eavesdropper Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 24	I think this is the only place and time we'll have free will, and that the development of our spirits will be determined in this life if at all, and that every dimension of our existence hereafter will simply be a progression of our souls to infinity... forever. So we won't have free will but will always be developing in some way. Heaven as a cloudy place with angel wings is cute, but it would get dull after a while I think.

09-03-2008, 04:06 PM	#132
Ruminator Ohio fisherman Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 117	This is one long thread to read through. There are a ton of thoughts I'd like to respond to, but it would take three evenings. First, to answer the threads question in a way that hasn't yet been done- Yes, there will be be free will in Heaven. But the inhabitants will be willingly exercising their free will within the boundaries of God's overall best will for them. This should be pretty easy to do since God is a God of Love and His best will for them is what will give them the greatest, most joyous life possible, I would think. But it won't be strumming a harp for all eternity in one long Praisefest! That is not a biblical teaching at all, anywhere, that Heaven is a place where singing praises for all eternity is the main gig. In fact where will christians exist after the New Creation? (see Revelations 21-22) What will those who have learned to subject their will to God's will do throughout eternity since its not playing a harp and singing continuously? Thank God for that! Let me throw out another applicable thought that hasn't come up yet. What is the difference between "believe", and "know" as applied to a personal religious "faith"? Christians often fail to use "know" when it for some actually applies and can more clearly define their thoughts and experiences. Ex.- if I know that a specific berry will make one sick from past personal experience, how does that compare to someones belief that the berry won't make one sick who hasn't experienced eating the berry? Last edited by Ruminator; 09-03-2008 at 04:18 PM.

09-03-2008, 06:27 PM	#134
Ruminator Ohio fisherman Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 117	I hear you Dana and I appreciate where you are coming from, thank-you. From your answer I think I need to make a signature about this. I have learned that we can best understand one another in the "far from perfect" thing called communicating if we are as detailed and specific as possible with each other in what we say. It eliminates as much misunderstanding as possible. I see, and use the word "know" in my talking with someone when it applies not as a word of carrying any emotion or attitude; but rather one of conveying a detailed, specific difference in meaning from "believe". There is a huge, nay "humongous" difference between the two words. Each word carries a definitive difference in steps of degree. the same as the scientific steps of: (question, postulate, theorize, proof, know) ex.- (question, think, believe, know) If there is no chance of any one of us being able to know a specific something, I could see all of us not using the word because it wouldn't apply. But it is possible to not confer any attitude while using it. I am old enough and have experienced many things enough to know more than many, and less than many others about all sorts of things. True of all of us to varying degrees. Isn't that why we enjoy these forums? I love to learn from those around me, and if I can give something useful back in return we are twice blessed as I look it. I know I am. Last edited by Ruminator; 09-03-2008 at 07:11 PM.

09-03-2008, 07:22 PM	#135
Ruminator Ohio fisherman Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 117	Oh yea, I'll be the first to say that in using the word "know" with someone you are close to, and who knows you well; they have an obvious ability to understand you and how well you can correctly perceive reality. Unfortunately here on the internet, we can only somewhat correctly understand each others honesty, and abilities to reason logically. But I still wouldn't want us to lose the value of the specific, detailed, difference in definitions. We can do our best by gleaning what we can from all of a member's posts. Plus we can always ask in the forums, or pm one another. Last edited by Ruminator; 09-03-2008 at 07:40 PM.

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