10/24: Indonesian protest

[Undertoad]

They don't like the US in Indonesia right now, and here they protest. But why, why, why an albino buffalo to represent GWB?

Sorry for missing not one but TWO days of IotD in the last week. Luckily people are posting their own images to bail me out. It remains hard to find good stuff out there as news photographers focus on the serious, and most of the serious is things you've already seen. I can't believe they continue to show the WTC rubble cleanup; it may be just a call to remember the whole thing, but the pictures are pretty much the same every day.

[russotto]

Originally posted by Undertoad


They don't like the US in Indonesia right now, and here they protest. But why, why, why an albino buffalo to represent GWB?

They couldn't afford an elephant?

[scampo]

roflmao

The entire community of protestors overseas are generally misinformed by propaganda by their "religious leaders". No joke.

This whole "can't fight violence with violence" thing reminded me of something I read.

If someone is talking to you about how we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan, ask them "Why?" - when they start reasoning that you can't fight violence with violence (for whatever reason they give), punch them in the face. If they move to hit you back, say "Ah ah ah, can't fight violence with violence." If they hit you, they lose. If they don't, let them keep speaking. Then punch them in the face again. Repeat as necessary.

Remember, you're doing them a favor.

[juju]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
The entire community of protestors overseas are generally misinformed by propaganda by their "religious leaders". No joke.

The lack of forethought in this statement astounds me. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that this statement also applies to Americans? (nix'ing the religious part, of course)

This whole "can't fight violence with violence" thing reminded me of something I read.

If someone is talking to you about how we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan, ask them "Why?" - when they start reasoning that you can't fight violence with
iolence (for whatever reason they give), punch them in the face. If they move to hit you back, say "Ah ah ah, can't fight violence with violence." If they hit you, they lose. If they don't, let them keep speaking. Then punch them in the face again. Repeat as necessary.

Remember, you're doing them a favor.

While I agree that violence should be retaliated against, this analogy fails, because the here victim immediately knows the source of the violence. A more adequate analogy would be if I punched you in the face and then you bombed McDonald's because I ate there yesterday.

And then an order is sent out to all newspapers telling them not to air any of my "terrorist propaganda" about why I did it -- The only possible motivation that I could have possibly had is that of a crazed and obsessive terrorist.

Patriotism is evil, because it causes people not to think -- they just blindly support. Like sheep.

(no hard feelings tho... I had fun writing this. Anyway, I guess we agree on the violence thing at least. )

--- juju

[TheDollyLlama]

Anyone notice that the dude leading the cow is wearing an Addidas cap? If he hates america, he needs to get his shit together.

Reminds me of a picture I saw just after Sep 11, where Palestinian boys were celebrating the "great satan" being bombed. One of the boys was wearing a Bears jersey.

[That Guy]

uhhhh, as I recall, isn't Adidas a German brand? So "Getting his shit together" would mean that he can't make that beast into a hamburger... Wait!!

[TheDollyLlama]

I think you're right. Addidas may be german. The idea of the post remains though. Look at the banners that the guys are wearing. The guy on the right appears to have one that reads "German"

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by TheDollyLlama
I think you're right. Addidas may be german. The idea of the post remains though. Look at the banners that the guys are wearing. The guy on the right appears to have one that reads "German"

And the one on the left is apparently supposed to be from "Prance". No idea where " ...nggais" might be. ("English"?) And is that "KGB" bringing up the rear?

I guess we need to remeber these folks don't even know the roman alphabet. It dos highlight that the demonstrations are staged for the consumption of western media though.

Originally posted by juju2112


The lack of forethought in this statement astounds me. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that this statement also applies to Americans?

Here, watch this...

The lack of forethought in YOUR statement astounds me. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that it HAD occurred to me, and I STILL came to that conclusion? That is, by the way, the case. FURTHERMORE, I didn't say a fucking thing about about US BEING BETTER. I simply said what I see, NOT COMPARING IT TO MY SOCIETY IN ANY WAY. So, YOU can FUCK RIGHT OFF, you and your ignorant, assuming nature.

A more adequate analogy would be if I punched you in the face and then you bombed McDonald's because I ate there yesterday.

Uhm, no. That would be like if we bombed Pizza Hut because some of the terrorists ate there the night before. Which we didn't. Instead, we have been working hard to collect the evidence of those who collaborated on this. We are then seeking to dismantle their powerbase. When they are protected, we are seeking to dismantle that protection so that we can get to the real problem. The problem, of course, being those that support killing innocent civilians "where ever they are found." <-- Osama bin Laden's words, not mine. I seem to recall us gathering evidence, coming to the logical conclusion that al Qaida had some play in what transpired on September 11, waiting ALMOST A MONTH after the attacks, and THEN, after giving the government that harbors the terrorists A NUMBER OF CHANCES TO HAND OVER KNOWN TERRORIST OPERATIVES AND THEIR LEADERS, striking MILITARY TARGETS so we could send in a TARGETED GROUND CAMPAIGN to capture TERRORISTS while inflicting MINIMAL DAMAGE OTHERWISE.

For the record, I do know this is what we are doing. I work at a large government contractor. The software I write is used by the people that are carrying out these missions. Our contacts with the government, our customer, are close. And we are provided with feedback. So I'm not making this shit up, and I'm not reading it in the news. I'm hearing about how we are doing a good job, because software we have worked on has had a list of successes.

The only possible motivation that I could have possibly had is that of a crazed and obsessive terrorist.

I'm glad you brought that to the table, though I didn't mention it. But since you did, I'll respond.

In all the reading I have done, everything indicates that those behind this attack were not crazed - obsessive, obviously. But not crazed. Why you chose that adjective, I don't know. I would speculate it was chosen to make my argument look weak and emotional instead of logical. But that's just speculation. Regardless, their motivation is irrelevant: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So even if they thought they were saving the US by killing off some 5,400 "crazed" Nazi punks, putting a highly over-valued economy back where it should be and keeping the American public from living a life too good and full of vise, the fact of the matter is that they MURDERED FIVE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Golly gee willickers, Juju - I personally thought this was wrong. But if you have some trouble with the media portraying these people as indecent human beings, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Patriotism is evil, because it causes people not to think -- they just blindly support. Like sheep.

Again, since I said NOTHING about it, I'm not sure why you're mentioning it. But I'm glad you did, because it gives me another chance to retort.

You can quote Oscar Wilde all you want, but it doesn't make you an intellect. "Patriotism is a virtue of the viscious." No. Blind patriotism is a virtue of the ignorant and/or inept. Those that follow their government, think they have a great country DESPITE ITS MANY FLAWS and STILL think that maybe the government should uphold its primary function, that being the PROTECTION OF ITS CITIZENS, could very well be considered patriots. If that's the case, then I am one. But calling patriots blind or evil is a statement wholly based on ignorance. From your comments, one could deduce that you never bothered to seek out whether some patriots are informed. You sling around gross generalizations like they're fact. I recall saying they were "generally misinformed" - you made no such concession, instead accusing all that fall under your vast, pre-defined umbrella of being "sheep", based on no tangible or credible evidence. At least I've read what you wrote and responded to that instead of calling you "a fucking cock sucker" for no good reason.

But yeah, sure, no hard feelings.

[juju]

Hmm... I didn't really mean for you to take it personally, I was merely being contrary for the sake of argument. I like arguments. But I don't like people hating me. So, although I do stand by my statements, i'm sorry that I offended you.

This is sort of why I don't like patriotism -- dissenting opnions are met with anger. Although perhaps you were responding from personal offense and not love of country. But anyway, how can someone be informed when they react like this to a different viewpoint?

I didn't know that was an Oscar Wilde quote..that's kinda cool. I just sorta thought it out myself. But now that you mention it I think I have heard that quote before. Maybe it was in my subconscious.

I could go into a point-by-point analysis on what you said, and I have thought of counterpoints, but I have no wish to be in a shouting match.

I don't mind you being different. Or having different opinions. "I agree not with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Voltaire. I'm the same way.

I responded how I did because I felt your argument was baseless and ill-supported. I don't mind you telling me that you think I'm wrong - as long as you tell me WHY, and it MAKES SENSE ("You're wrong." "Why?" "Because you're ugly" != Logical). What's frustrating is when someone goes "yeah, you're an idiot" but they never mention WHY. I like discussion for the sake of discussion. Argument for the sake of argument is more like trolling. I'd rather someone at least added some substance to their claims instead of just fanning the flames.

As far as patriotism meaning "dissenting opinions are met with anger" - sorry, but no. I am a patriot, and I believe wholeheartedly on the ideas on which this country was founded. In a word, Freedom. That is what it really means to be a patriot. I am not angry that you feel the way you do - I retort because I feel you say it but don't back it with substance. Just SAYING doesn't mean anything unless you can offer EVIDENCE. It applies to everyone - you, jaguar, the government... and that's the way it should be. Many of the people in our country believe that to be a patriot is to blindly follow the government. Well, I believe in the country and the basis upon which it was founded. That doesn't necessarily mean that I place my faith solely in the government. Any true patriot would tell you that even though they think your post in a Philadelphia-based message board was kinda silly and not that well supported, they'd never dream of silencing you.

What I'm saying is, I do not agree with what you say, but I will gladly give my life if it means you have that FREEDOM that we are working so hard to defend right now. I just might think that you needed to back it up more for it to be effective.

[jaguar]

You can quote Oscar Wilde all you want, but it doesn't make you an intellect. "Patriotism is a virtue of the viscious." No. Blind patriotism is a virtue of the ignorant and/or inept. Those that follow their government, think they have a great country DESPITE ITS MANY FLAWS and STILL think that maybe the government should uphold its primary function, that being the PROTECTION OF ITS CITIZENS, could very well be considered patriots. If that's the case, then I am one. But calling patriots blind or evil is a statement wholly based on ignorance. From your comments, one could deduce that you never bothered to seek out whether some patriots are informed. You sling around gross generalizations like they're fact. I recall saying they were "generally misinformed" - you made no such concession, instead accusing all that fall under your vast, pre-defined umbrella of being "sheep", based on no tangible or credible evidence.

I think is roughly what juju is trying to say.

Three is a fine line between arguing, debating and trolling. Sometimes I substitute the word argue for debate myself.

ohh I got special mention, care to tell which debate I was talking out my arse in? =)

Patriotism is dhamsaic is saying is all good but it is so often used as a tool but often anti-patriotic force as that cartoon is trying to say. I’d consider Ashcroft as lowly as Bin Laden now if I was a 'patriot' because he is really probably doing more dammage to the constitution than bin laden ever will, although you could blame him on the basis one is the result of the other, in which case the anti-terrorism bill is just because the US gov is just stupid, which as not as bad as trying to use a time of danger to screw its citizens.

waiting ALMOST A MONTH after the attacks, and THEN, after giving the government that harbors the terrorists A NUMBER OF CHANCES TO HAND OVER KNOWN TERRORIST OPERATIVES AND THEIR LEADERS, striking MILITARY TARGETS so we could send in a TARGETED GROUND CAMPAIGN to capture TERRORISTS while inflicting MINIMAL DAMAGE OTHERWISE.

History will judge the US's actions on what they do when they capture Bin Laden. A 'trial' in the US would be a farce as much as the show trials in Russia earlier last centaury, in reality he should be tried in The Hague; it was designed for this kind of thing. The Taliban offered to hand bin laden over for a trial in a neutral country, the US told them to piss off and kept bombing. While it was most probably just a smokescreen to stop the bombing sure if the United States was truly interested in *JUSTICE* not *REVENGE* then they would look seriously at this offer and ask for a country such as Switzerland.


Sorry to weigh into someone else’s debate but I just can't keep my mouth shut today.

This whole "can't fight violence with violence" thing reminded me of something I read.

*sigh* Sure, but tthen you get pissed and punch them back again, net result: you both have broken noses, fanfuckingtastic. SO now you ahve two angry men which broken noses who are going o be pissed off at each other for a very long time. On the other hand if hte first bloke instead went ot the police and sued the guy for assult hes 10k richer and can afford plastic surgery to get an even better nose. (translation: surgical strike out bin laden, nothing else and mabye do something to alleviate the conditions that cause the problem in the first place) Read Issac Asimov's Foundation Trilliogy (don't read the second 3, they suck), please.

Re: a trial in the Hague... the fact of the matter is, you cannot guarantee an "impartial" jury ANYWHERE now. Period.

Let me clarify something. I live in Fairfax, Virginia. I work in Tyson's Corner, Virginia. Both are roughly 25 minutes from downtown Washington, D.C. Being a large government contractor, we have people that were in the Pentagon that day. A man I know, who worked in my building, was killed that day at the Pentagon. He lived in Fairfax. He has a four year old son and a wife that he's left behind. It could have been me. It could have been someone I work with that I know better than I knew Khang. I am close enough to Washington that a powerful enough attack could very easily cause harm or death to someone I know or love. Or me.

Now, I said that to illustrate the seriousness of this situation. There may come a day in the future where I drop off the Cellar. And you read in the news that a surface nuke went off at Tyson's Corner Center, the ritziest mall in Fairfax County, the wealthiest county in the country. They picked it to strike more fear into the average American - a big mall, but not a likely target. Not wholly unlikely either.

And all of a sudden, I'm gone. And so are thousands of people around me. Jenni works in Tyson's.

Maybe we're gone because we didn't fight back. Maybe the person that detonated that nuclear device would have been "neutralized" had a US jet dropped a bunker buster on an underground shelter some place in Afghanistan.

But we can't, 'cause we're not at war, right? That's what I hear some people saying. It's not a war. The enemy isn't defined.

Well, I sure as hell did hear Osama bin Laden calling for a jihad against Americans. ..."seek out and kill Americans, where ever they are." That, to me, indicates pretty explicitly that we are at war, our enemy defined - those who wage war on us.

Know that we didn't ask for this. Though our backing of Israel may, at times, be a bit extreme, the majority of the United States citizenship has nothing to do with this. Laura Angiletta didn't kill any Palestinians. She wasn't occupying Saudi soil. Look at that picture. Click that link. She's cute, isn't she? Her status got upgraded from "Reported Missing" to "Confirmed Dead" not too long ago.

For no good reason.

We fight this war against a defined enemy. We're not striking back and ending up with two broken noses. We're striking back because Laura Angiletta's body didn't become a mangled corpse for nothing.

To put it another way: if we strike back, we will be attacked. If we don't strike back, we will be attacked. Maybe this way we can keep mine, or Jenni's, or Donald's corpse from becoming a decomposing heap of meat in a month old pile of rubble. And while we're at it, we'll try real hard to keep that whole "pursuit of happiness" thing going too... I know I don't want my kids growing up in fear because we let the whole world know that we'll take it lying down.

When a man knows he can beat his wife, he will do it with impunity. When a man hits his wife and she clubs him in the head with a baseball bat, he may think twice about doing it next time.

Finally... a ground war on mainland Japan was avoided by dropping a Big Fucking Bomb. Lives were saved. Do you honestly doubt that this will turn out any other way?

[jaguar]

QUOTE]Re: a trial in the Hague... the fact of the matter is, you cannot guarantee an "impartial" jury ANYWHERE now. Period. [/quote]
If you think he'd get a fairer or more fair trial in a US court than the Hague....

Finally... a ground war on mainland Japan was avoided by dropping a Big Fucking Bomb. Lives were saved. Do you honestly doubt that this will turn out any other way?

Ok, so you bomb the shit out of Afghanistan. Kill bin laden, maybe a few of his top cronies if you’re lucky too. Wait 5 years and the next leader gets to add the bombing to his list of pretty reasonably grievances (and like griff I agree with the motives, not the methods). It does. Not. Solve. The. Issue.

Policies of appeasement have had some spectacular failures *coughww2cough* but people don't kill themselves without a good reason. Parents would not send their kids to extremists Islamic schools if they had moneys to send them elsewhere, they don't have money coz there is shit all economy and generally shithsoue conditions. Sure we pump .0001%of our GDP into aid or something but come on.

A rather rough historical example would be this as a global French revolution

Yea. *US* lives were saved, million odd evil jap civvies were killed but what the heck. That was an entirely different situation and a comparison is not fair. Secondly I’ve heard this sued by the other side - the US killed civvies by the million, we consider ourselves at war with the US, Israel kills civvies, what’s the fuss.

The US has a history of double standards. Remember a few years ago when in Russia *Muslim* Chechen rebels kept taking down flat blocks and 600 people per time. The US later turned round and condemned the Invasion of Chechnya. Gee change a few words and that looks rather similar to something that happened recently….
Going to reply to the rest of my post?

To summerise the last post a little, if loving the ideals your country is based on makes you a patriot, a true patriot would hate your currant government, not doing this to some degree would be backing up juju's point perfectly.