10/24: Indonesian protest

have to go to work, but i'll respond to one point quickly...

Yea. *US* lives were saved, million odd evil jap civvies were killed but what the heck.

I hear this shit spouted off all the time. Where did you get that fucking number? Did you pull it out of your ass or what?

Try ~100,000 next time, which is an order of magnitude LESS than what you stated.

As for it just saving US lives... HOLY SHIT JAGUAR. PLEASE go read a fucking book about WHAT THE GROUND WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE. It is KNOWN that many of the Japanese would have FOUGHT WITH SPOONS AND ROCKS until they were OBLITERATED. Estimated death toll of a ground invasion was in the 1.5 million number on the Japanese side and it wasn't too great for us either. Are you aware that on Okinawa, when we took the island and were telling Japanese citizens that it was okay, we weren't going to hurt them... they were taking their families and jumping off cliffs? This was the kind of shit we were trying to AVOID by showing the Emperor that war wasn't a GOOD IDEA. It's a good damn thing that he bought it, too.

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar


Ok, so you bomb the shit out of Afghanistan. Kill bin laden, maybe a few of his top cronies if you’re lucky too. Wait 5 years and the next leader gets to add the bombing to his list of pretty reasonably grievances (and like griff I agree with the motives, not the methods). It does. Not. Solve. The. Issue.

Even if I accept this scenario (and I don't; it would only result from doing a half-assed job), that's 5 years of attacks prevented. Not so bad. And since these assholes are going to have grievances which will be accepted by their fellow fanatics whether reasonable or not, one more isn't going to make a difference.

Just what do you expect the US to do? This isn't like the Pan Am bombing where the US could afford to let the attackers hole up in Libya for a decade or so -- these guys aren't just guilty of a far larger crime, they are still actively running their organization. Last minute offers to send Osama to some neutral country of the Taliban's choosing are pretty clear phony delaying tactics; of course the US will pay no attention to them.

If you want to solve the issue, there's two ways to go about it. One is to destroy Al-Queda and any other organization involved in terrorism. This means destroying all their fixed assets (hence Afghanistan), killing or imprisoning anyone with a position of power within the organization, infiltrating or destroying all their means of comunication, confiscating or destroying their movable assets, etc. The other is total isolationism. Not just withdrawing our military from everywhere around the world, but no longer exporting US culture -- no more McDonalds and Coke overseas. No more American movies or TV or music exported. We just withdraw into our shell and give the Islamic fundamantalists nothing to hate; we become a big zero in the world. The terrorists would call this a victory, of course -- and they'd be right.

Policies of appeasement have had some spectacular failures *coughww2cough* but people don't kill themselves without a good reason.

People kill themselves without a good reason all the time. Policies of appeasment have had spectacular failures (not just WWII -- there's an old expression, "Once you've paid the Danegeld, you'll never be rid of the Dane"). Have they had ANY successes?

Originally posted by jaguar
If you think he'd get a fairer or more fair trial in a US court than the Hague....

Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.

I don't think he's going to get a fair trial anywhere. I think that's even what I said before. You know what? Our government knows this. Any trial, anywhere, would be a farce. He's not coming back here alive, buddy. When US commandos find him, if he's still alive (hasn't committed suicide), he will be shot, a picture or two will be taken for proof, and that'll be it. A trial would incite more anger anyway - we're trying to avoid that as much as possible. He'll get toasted the moment he pops his head out. That'll be that.

It does. Not. Solve. The. Issue.

I. Know. This. So. Do. Most. Of. The. Citizens. Of. My. Country. I. Am. Going. To. Stop. The. Dramatic. Pausing. Now.

The fact of the matter is, operations need MONEY and GUIDANCE to work. Especially ones on the scale of the 9/11 attacks. IF YOU DISMANTLE THEIR BASE OF POWER, IT WILL BE INFINITELY MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO OPERATE. THAT is the goal. Not totally by bombing "the shit out of Afghanistan" either. Targeted ground operations. There isn't much more precise than an H&K pistol being pressed against the back of someone's head. That is how they will go down. We may get lucky and hit 'em with a bomb, but I don't think that's the plan. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that bin Laden has the cash and the know-how to TRAIN people to KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Will others rise in his place? Absolutely. Will we /neutralize/ them as well? Yes. There's a saying... "All Indians. No Chiefs." That's what it's like over there... one guy steps up 'cause he's pretty sharp and he's got a ton of money. And people flock to him to ease their suffering 'cause they think that's what's going to happen if they "martyr" themselves for Allah. All it takes is a LEADER and these people will follow. If you consistently KILL their terrorist leaders, you consistently take away their ability to operate effectively. That is the goal.

if loving the ideals your country is based on makes you a patriot, a true patriot would hate your currant government, not doing this to some degree would be backing up juju's point perfectly.

No. A true patriot would say "without this government, we cannot possibly live with the freedom which we are guaranteed." Like I SAID before, the government is NOT PERFECT. But one has to tolerate its indiscretions because having it in place guarantees that our lives continue with our basic freedoms.

Maybe you have to live here to understand. This is one of the things that constantly amazes me about you - you're perfectly willing to sit back and toss out armchair speculation about things you have nearly NO CLUE about. Do you see me talking about Australia like I'm some fucking expert? No. Why? Because I've never lived there and I don't know shit about what it is to be an Australian. Yet you seem to have the United States all figured out from half way around the world. Do you live here? Did you vote in our last election? Do you understand what it is to live in a country that was FOUNDED on a few basic freedoms that CANNOT be taken away; to understand that in 1776, against OVERWHELMING ODDS, MEN FOUGHT AND DIED so that juju and Tony and tw and I could sit here and express our stupid opinions without fearing that someone would kill us for it. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA what our freedom has bought for the rest of the world? If the United States didn't set the example, where do you think Australia would be right now?

I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. I'm pretty fucking tired of people stating the most ludicrous things and not bothering to offer any evidence. I'm done.

Tony - what about that UT server? We oughta talk some time too - if you's gots the facilities, do you do colocation? I could pay you, and you wouldn't have to administer the box

[Undertoad]

Well what happened was that my spare box up n died. Remember me asking a few days back - what's it mean when your IDE activity light goes on and stays on? That was the box intended to act as the server! Grumble grumble.

I do colocation, the ultimate in mom & pop colo where new boxes sit on the floor right next to where the dogs gather by my feet. Well, unless a new box ever comes in that's rack-mountable.

But... you mentioned payment?

[juju]

<br>
Note to self: avoid future war debates with dhamsaic, otherwise HE MIGHT START TALKING LIKE THIS!. *ahem*. okay..it's like a new years resolution, or something. Only it's in October.
<br>
<br>

Tony -

email me. saic@hamda.com - i think you can figure out how that needs to be switched, considering i work at saic. i'd give you my personal address, but my server in mississippi got killed by the backbone provider that the isp uses (and where the box is) because scott put the goddamn rh72 iso on there and two of his friends were downloading it from oc3's... eating up some 95% of the t1... i spanked him very hard and told him never to put big files on there again but yeah... we'll talk about what i'm looking for and what i can pay...

Juju -

sometimes emphasis just has to be added.

[elSicomoro]

This one looks like fun...

dham: Your emotions are understandable, but the emotions as a whole in this crisis are what will break us or make us stand tall as a nation.

I don't think taking out the base in Afghanistan is going to necessarily relieve the problem. al-Qaeda is set up in what? 65 countries? It's going to take more than going into Afghanistan to stop al-Qaeda. We're seeing progress in the arrests made, particularly Germany. But when you have others beyond bin Laden that are funneling money into this organization, then you have a whole other issue. The easiest solutions seem to be pulling out of Saudi Arabia and withdrawing support for Israel. The former is possible, but the latter will NEVER happen. And even if we did that, I'm sure there would still be someone out there with a beef against the United States. This is just one organization...there are so many more out there. Hell, for all we know, the British could renew emotions about losing us 225 years ago...

Jag: You HAVE been slagging on the States an awful lot lately. Granted, the US DOES f**k up. But at the same, we DO help other nations. I don't know if it's measurable, but I'd say in the end, there's been more good than harm. Jesus Christ, we're not necessarily the world's punching bag. The blood is not just on one person's hands. Germany probably could have taken all of Europe during WW1 if not for the US. Besides, our head of state is not a Queen here (ceremonial or not). Let up a bit, will ya?

The estimated number of Japanese civilians killed in the atomic bombs is about 250,000. They were absolutely horrible...but I don't blame the US for using them one bit. It was wartime.

I worry about one of my reps at work. His father works for an American company at their Jakarta offices. His father and mother have not been able to leave their apartment in the past few weeks. In the event that things go absolutely nuts, they have plans to flee. I can't imagine a society where I would have to live in true fear such as that.

[eggplantpasta]

Originally posted by MaggieL


I guess we need to remeber these folks don't even know the roman alphabet. It dos highlight that the demonstrations are staged for the consumption of western media though.

They do use the roman alphabet in Indonesia actually. Also in Malasia and Singapore. The sashes could be group or political identification?

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by eggplantpasta


They do use the roman alphabet in Indonesia actually. Also in Malasia and Singapore. The sashes could be group or political identification?

OK, color *me* corrected too. :-) I stand informed. Reinformed. Unmisinformed. Or something.

[jaguar]

I’m currently wearing my new favorite t-shit *don't fuck with me or ill saw off your legs* courtesy of Unamerican

*rubs hands with glee as he pulls out a verbal chainsaw*
Oh good this is going to be fun.
Ill answer all in one long winding post.

First of all on the issue of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. Death toll quotes form an Old New Yorker magazine came to a total of around 200,000. Ok that figure was bullshit and the example was flawed. At the same time it can be totally removed from the equation, yes it world have been very messy, but it did stop them a ground war would have been worse you are correct. Pardon me on that. At the same time it is worthless for this because if you think nuking Afghanistan is going to stop these people you got another thing coming. Sure could nuke Afghanistan/Pakistan/Uzbekistan/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Indonesia/Sudan etc and take out about a quarter of the worlds population you might solve it, a bit but if your advocating that I think you should <censored>. ON otp of that you better nuke all teh 65 countries that have al-queda cells, including the US and most of Europe. Ever heard of the expression 'Burning down your house to kill a mouse'?


Now, on with the show.

Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.

I never said he would, its matter of degrees, not absolutes.

I. Know. This. So. Do. Most. Of. The. Citizens. Of. My. Country. I. Am. Going. To. Stop. The. Dramatic. Pausing. Now.

OK then JUST stop TALKING in CAPITALs is that OK??????

Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.

'Nuff said me thinks.

There's a saying... "All Indians. No Chiefs." That's what it's like over there... one guy steps up 'cause he's pretty sharp and he's got a ton of money. And people flock to him to ease their suffering 'cause they think that's what's going to happen if they "martyr" themselves for Allah. All it takes is a LEADER and these people will follow. If you consistently KILL their terrorist leaders, you consistently take away their ability to operate effectively. That is the goal.

You know there is only one truly great line that I’ve heard in a game and that is from Deus Ex (level 1 boss to be accurate)

"you cannot fight ideas with bullets"

Israel has been killing terrorist leaders for decades, done fuck all good. You don't seem to understand that while VALID GRIVBENCES exist (troops in Saudi and Support for a very Xenophobia Israel) people will be pissed. Leaders are irrelevant in the big picture. (I gotta watch this Marxist stuff

Maybe you have to live here to understand. This is one of the things that constantly amaze me about you - you're perfectly willing to sit back and toss out armchair speculation about things you have nearly NO CLUE about. Do you see me talking about Australia like I'm some fucking expert? No. Why? Because I've never lived there and I don't know shit about what it is to be an Australian. Yet you seem to have the United States all figured out from half way around the world. Do you live here? Did you vote in our last election? Do you understand what it is to live in a country that was FOUNDED on a few basic freedoms that CANNOT be taken away; to understand that in 1776, against OVERWHELMING ODDS, MEN FOUGHT AND DIED so that juju and Tony and tw and I could sit here and express our stupid opinions without fearing that someone would kill us for it. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA what our freedom has bought for the rest of the world? If the United States didn't set the example, where do you think Australia would be right now?

Fark man you just don't get it. Those ideals, those freedoms ARE IN DANGER OF BEING TAKEN AWAY BY YOUR FUCKING GOVERMENT!!!
DMCA, SSSCA, Anti-terror bil. Corperate money is going to snuff out the stuff you hold so dear. You government blocked a bill designed to stop exploitation of tax-havens? Why? Coz of over 300k given within about a week by Financial groups. *sighs* McCain’s campaign finance reform bill needed to be passed, maybe a stronger form would be good too. Sadly it won’t happen.
Wake up and smell the coffee!!! There are allot of people with allot of money that think that the stupid little constitution is getting in their way of getting alto more money and they are buying your fucking government to shit all over it. Look I think those things are fantastic too, that’s why I’m so fucking pissed off geeez.

I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. I'm pretty fucking tired of people stating the most ludicrous things and not bothering to offer any evidence. I'm done.

What evidence do you want? That the Anti-terror bill impinges on your fundamental freedoms? Not hard. Point out where I’m talking out my ass (except for the 1 million figure, I do apologise for that) and ill back it up.

I’m no fucking expert but i read, think and debate allot, i know what i know. I know the SSCA will cripple free software, I know that the Anti-terror bill will weaken the US constitution, I know that these things are not internal US issues, they have GLOBAL impact. No I didn't vote in your last election, not that it would have made a difference whether I did or not the Supreme Court decided that one. I also don't see how that has any impact on this discussion, I still have a personal interest in what the US government is going, because they are the most powerful one on earth.

On to rusotto

Even if I accept this scenario (and I don't; it would only result from doing a half-assed job), that's 5 years of attacks prevented. Not so bad. And since these assholes are going to have grievances which will be accepted by their fellow fanatics whether reasonable or not, one more isn't going to make a difference.

You think you can kill every single terrorist in the Middle East? You really think that? 5 years of attacks stopped? Well considering the anthrax is still flowing severe bombing of Afghanistan and capturing all those people doesn’t seemed to have much impact. Trying to stop terrorism with pure force is like trying to kill bamboo, you can kill it everywhere it comes up but its still there (as i'm discovering in the front garder at the moment), under the ground, waiting. You cannot fight ideas with bullets.

If you want to solve the issue, there's two ways to go about it. One is to destroy Al-Queda and any other organization involved in terrorism. This means destroying all their fixed assets (hence Afghanistan), killing or imprisoning anyone with a position of power within the organization, infiltrating or destroying all their means of communication, confiscating or destroying their movable assets, etc. The other is total isolationism

How about solving the issues that give this cause popular support. Troops in Saudi Arabia and support of an Israel that is doing nothing to create peace???? There are also economic and cultural issue but these two alone I think would remove a lot of support. People over there just nwat to get on with their lives for crying out loud without being bombed/beaten up/shot. I have a friend in Isreal who knows Palstinians, most just want to live out their lives without being in constant fear of being shot.

People kill themselves without a good reason all the time.

Maybe not valid reasons to you but I’m sure they are to those people. In he case of suicide bombers they clearly think what they are doing is worth sacrificing their lives for.

The key as I see it is to remove the popular support, extremism needs it to really do that much.

Syc: The stuff the US is based on is fantastic, I think the US has done some great stuff. Aid to other countries is a delicate issue, it would be cynical but I’d say much of it has ulterior motives. I like the stuff the US is based on, Jefferson said himself “I hope we snuff at berth of monied corporations” I bet he’s spinning in his grave about what their creation has become.

Whoever is the biggest is always going to be in the spotlight and a rallying point for a common enemy. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. At the same time there is a limit to everything, it’s not the US I hate. It’s who have exploited its freedoms, namely corporations.

juju: I think you have been proven to be totally correct =)

PPTs(post-posting thoughts):
Argh my posts are getting as long as tws!
I know i've antoganised a few people here, i hope this clears things up a bit. I guess there is laot fo truth in the saying that money is the root of all evil, coz there sure is alot of it washing around congress, personally i think this is a very bad thing (see my thread in politics for more rambelings about this)

That Jefferson quote might be slightly off on the wording ,gotta check.

[jaguar]

Nothing to say dham?
All getting a bit hard is it? and here i was thinking you were made of sterner stuff, bah that was a waste of half an hour. Could have been playing diablo 2..

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar

You know there is only one truly great line that I’ve heard in a game and that is from Deus Ex (level 1 boss to be accurate)

"you cannot fight ideas with bullets"

Israel has been killing terrorist leaders for decades, done fuck all good. You don't seem to understand that while VALID GRIVBENCES exist (troops in Saudi and Support for a very Xenophobia Israel) people will be pissed. Leaders are irrelevant in the big picture. (I gotta watch this Marxist stuff

Doesn't matter if people are pissed; people are going to be pissed either way. There is no manner in which the United States can act, including total isolationism, which will not piss someone off.

What matters is what they can do about it. And that is something bullets can affect.

Israel doesn't have free reign to go after the terrorist organizations in their host countries. The United States

Fark man you just don't get it. Those ideals, those freedoms ARE IN DANGER OF BEING TAKEN AWAY BY YOUR FUCKING GOVERMENT!!!
DMCA, SSSCA, Anti-terror bil. Corperate money is going to snuff out the stuff you hold so dear.

Don't tell _me_ I don't get it. I've run smack into the DMCA; I know what it does. (and no, I can't give details; that's the problem with the DMCA...). I know there's still a chance it can get struck down, too. The SSSCA is dead for now. The anti-terror bill is a nasty and ugly thing, but it certainly has nothing to do with "corporate money".

You government blocked a bill designed to stop exploitation of tax-havens? Why? Coz of over 300k given within about a week by Financial groups. *sighs*

So where's the problem? I like tax havens. The bills I've seen to stop their use are all quite ugly themselves.

McCain’s campaign finance reform bill needed to be passed, maybe a stronger form would be good too. Sadly it won’t happen.

Any campaign finance reform bill which passes will simply strengthen the power of the incumbents.

Wake up and smell the coffee!!! There are allot of people with allot of money that think that the stupid little constitution is getting in their way of getting alto more money and they are buying your fucking government to shit all over it. Look I think those things are fantastic too, that’s why I’m so fucking pissed off geeez.

They're buying YOUR government too. And Europe.

But what any of this has to do with Osama bin Laden, I don't know. The United States could be a totalitarian dictatorship, and destroying a terrorist organization which attacked the country would STILL be justified.

You think you can kill every single terrorist in the Middle East? You really think that? 5 years of attacks stopped? Well considering the anthrax is still flowing severe bombing of Afghanistan and capturing all those people doesn’t seemed to have much impact. Trying to stop terrorism with pure force is like trying to kill bamboo, you can kill it everywhere it comes up but its still there (as i'm discovering in the front garder at the moment), under the ground, waiting. You cannot fight ideas with bullets.

Don't have to kill every single terrorist in the Middle East. Just destroy the organizations, so the remaining terrorists don't have the money or co-ordination to carry out really big attacks. Where the WTC is really big and the anthrax thing isn't.

How about solving the issues that give this cause popular support. Troops in Saudi Arabia and support of an Israel that is doing nothing to create peace????

I see. We should give in to the terrorists. Yeah, that'll help. So we pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia, and withdraw support for Israel. I see two likely scenarios resulting from that:

1) Iraq and Syria achieve serious territorial expansion.
2) Israel gets pushed to the wall and goes nuclear.

There are also economic and cultural issue but these two alone I think would remove a lot of support. People over there just nwat to get on with their lives for crying out loud without being bombed/beaten up/shot. I have a friend in Isreal who knows Palstinians, most just want to live out their lives without being in constant fear of being shot.

Sure. But a whole bunch of them seem to want to kill Israelis at any cost. And THOSE are the ones you have to worry about.

[jaguar]

ill jsut quickly go though a few things before changing tack

Israel doesn't have free reign to go after the terrorist organizations in their host countries. The United States

Most of them are in Palastine and surrounding areas, they've bene killing, successfully leaders recently fr months, 'copter attacks and the like. It has has little or no impact. Its like that greek/roman goddess with the smake hair thing, cut off one another regrows.

Don't tell _me_ I don't get it. I've run smack into the DMCA; I know what it does. (and no, I can't give details; that's the problem with the DMCA...). I know there's still a chance it can get struck down, too. The SSSCA is dead for now. The anti-terror bill is a nasty and ugly thing, but it certainly has nothing to do with "corporate money".

was merely pointing out that the govt is passing laws that undermine the constitution.

So where's the problem? I like tax havens. The bills I've seen to stop their use are all quite ugly themselves.

Tax haven's have/are beign used by evilevil terrorist types to move money secretlywhich is why there is now a real effort to pass thsoe bills.

They're buying YOUR government too. And Europe.

I know, but europe is nowhere as bad.

But what any of this has to do with Osama bin Laden, I don't know. The United States could be a totalitarian dictatorship, and destroying a terrorist organization which attacked the country would STILL be justified.

True, that was (and the rest of that bit and other bits) baout patriotism now about terrorist attacks.

Don't have to kill every single terrorist in the Middle East. Just destroy the organizations, so the remaining terrorists don't have the money or co-ordination to carry out really big attacks. Where the WTC is really big and the anthrax thing isn't.

And oyu really think that is possible? Really? Every cell, every million? Estimated half a mil to the the WTC bombing, taht ain't much really.

Sure. But a whole bunch of them seem to want to kill Israelis at any cost. And THOSE are the ones you have to worry about.

Sure, but if you remove the majority of support, you remvoe the majority of their operating capacity without shooting anyone, great eh? This is the crux of the issue, instead of shooting/bombing everyone, try dealing wiht the issues.

I see. We should give in to the terrorists. Yeah, that'll help. So we pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia, and withdraw support for Israel. I see two likely scenarios resulting from that:

Saudi troops are the biggest cause of tension here, heathens in thier holy land, really i cannot blame them. Its like an evengalical christian setting up camp in my room, i'd want the fucker out too.

I meant push Isreal towards peace, not withdraw support, my bad on the wording.

Now....

ah crap ill continue this later (dinner)

Originally posted by jaguar
Nothing to say dham?
All getting a bit hard is it? and here i was thinking you were made of sterner stuff, bah that was a waste of half an hour. Could have been playing diablo 2..

Originally posted by myself, dhamsaic
I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. (...) I'm done.

I think that should have summed up my conversational status regarding this topic...

Go back to your cave, troll...

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar
ill jsut quickly go though a few things before changing tack

Most of them are in Palastine and surrounding areas, they've bene killing, successfully leaders recently fr months, 'copter attacks and the like. It has has little or no impact. Its like that greek/roman goddess with the smake hair thing, cut off one another regrows.

You're mixing up the Gorgons (of which Medusa was the most famous) and the Hydra. Cut the head off the Hydra, several more grow in its place. But that doesn't mean cutting the heads off isn't how to kill the Hydra -- Hercules killed it by cutting off the heads and having Aeolus cauterize the stumps.

And in any case, many of the leaders aren't in the West Bank or Gaza or anywhere Israel can operate fairly freely. Many are in Syria (Islamic Jihad, for instance). And obviously some are in Afghanistan.

Tax haven's have/are beign used by evilevil terrorist types to move money secretlywhich is why there is now a real effort to pass thsoe bills.

There's efforts to pass them now because they think they can use terrorism as an excuse. But the government just hates tax havens on principle.

I know, but europe is nowhere as bad.

(referring to the DMCA)
Actually, Europe is every bit as bad, only a few years behind. The European Union central committee has ordered all members to pass a law slightly worse than the DMCA by December 2002.
Australia has already passed a DMCA equivalent.

And oyu really think that is possible? Really? Every cell, every million? Estimated half a mil to the the WTC bombing, taht ain't much really.

You don't have to destroy every cell. Just destroy a large part of the organization. A cell structure is good for preventing a narc or turncoat from taking down the whole organization. It's not so good at remaking destroyed connections -- because limited connections is how the cell system prevents betrayals from being fatal.

Further, there are still the fixed assets -- the so called 'terrorist training camps'. Destroy those, and building new cells becomes much more difficult.

Sure, but if you remove the majority of support, you remvoe the majority of their operating capacity without shooting anyone, great eh? This is the crux of the issue, instead of shooting/bombing everyone, try dealing wiht the issues.

The crux of the issue is that you believe that at the root of the terrorism problem is a bunch of legitimate grievances against the United States.

Saudi troops are the biggest cause of tension here, heathens in thier holy land, really i cannot blame them. Its like an evengalical christian setting up camp in my room, i'd want the fucker out too.

Troops in Saudi Arabia are bin Laden's pet peeve, but Israel issues are far more important, IMO. There was plenty of terrorism before the US put troops in Saudi Arabia.

I meant push Isreal towards peace, not withdraw support, my bad on the wording.

Every time Israel moves towards peace, someone shoots up or blows up a few more Israelis. Of course, if they don't move towards peace, someone does it anyway. You can't make peace when the representatives of the warring factions aren't available for discussion, and that is the case there. Even if Israel were to make peace with Arafat, give him half of Jeruselam, the West Bank, whatever, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah and all the other terrorist organizations would still be blowing things up. As would likely parts of the PLO (even assuming Arafat himself keeps his end of the deal). It'd be a land-for-nothing deal.