Anyone being affected by Proposition 8?

[Sundae]

Doesn't affect me in the slightest. We have civil partnerships in the UK, as I think much of Europe in fact. I know quite a few people who have married under this agreement, both famous (ie I've read about it) and personal friends.

Doesn't seem to have caused any particular trouble.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by tw

A church that advocates peace and lives in peace also remains silent about American laws. A church is only a conduit between a man and his god - not a political action group.

Yes.

[classicman]

Pico, you didn't answer either of the questions. Any reason?

[Pico and ME]

Which questions were asked of me, Classic?

[classicman]

Uh, Oops wrong thread. Take a look at "Does Anyone feel like Bailing"

[HungLikeJesus]

There was a church in North Carolina (I think) that said it wouldn't give communion to anyone who voted for Obama. This, to me, seems like an abuse.

Pancakes.

[Shawnee123]

Coercion!

Bagels.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Doesn't affect me in the slightest. We have civil partnerships in the UK, as I think much of Europe in fact. I know quite a few people who have married under this agreement, both famous (ie I've read about it) and personal friends.

Doesn't seem to have caused any particular trouble.

California also had, and still has, civil unions. They guarantee the same-sex partners same rights that opposite-sex couples have.

The battle is over the word "Marriage", and what it means, not over what rights certain domestic partners do or do not have.

[Sundae]

Ah. Arguing over semantics.
Well, there you go, it's not that Americans are more conservative than Europeans, it's that European gays aren't as pedantic.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Juniper

Good gravy, Radar. Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel, OK?

The question of "rights" is complex. Are we born with rights by virtue of being human, or is it awarded by the government under which we live?

Enlightenment philosophes would say rights are integral to humanity and that all government is inherently oppressive, by its very nature.

Others, more pragmatically, might say "your rights end where mine begin."

And that is really the purpose of government, isn't it? It's about determining where one person's rights end, and another's begin, and enforcing the balance between the two. Pure, and distilled.

If you are a US resident, you have the "inalienable rights" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The First Constitutional Congress (and John Locke) said we should have the right to "life, liberty, and property." And then the Bill of Rights came along to give us some other stuff, like free speech, peaceful assembly, right to bear arms, trial by jury, that kind of thing. Amendments came along giving women the right to vote, etc.

My point, though, is are these all "inalienable rights" or are we just lucky enough to live in a time and place that recognizes them?

What gives you the right to do whatever it is you think you have a right to do? Or who gives you the right?

What is a "right" anyway?

Is it given by God? Whose God? How do you know?

I am not arguing that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry. I said as much. I just think you would be a much better asset to your cause if you had a more logical argument than "we've got the right." 'Cause what you're really saying is "I want this, others want this, and I want more people to agree with us than disagree."

Our rights don't come from government. Government is just here to protect those rights. We are born with our rights and they are one segment of natural law. There is no such thing as a Constitutional right. None of our rights come from the Constitution. The Constitution was just written so that other people would realize that all governmental power is derived from the rights of people, and that government may not have any powers that we have not granted to it. This means we may not grant any powers to government over and above the rights of any individual person.

Since no person has the right to use force to prevent the marriage of others, they may not grant this power to government.

How do I know what our rights are? Simple. We are born with the right to do ANYTHINGwe want as long as our actions don't physically harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. This means, since I own myself, I own my voice. I therefore have the right to freedom of expression. You also have freedom of expression, but you do not have the right to go through your life without ever being offended by the expression of others. You don't have the right to use force against others to prevent you from getting your feelings hurt.

One persons right to marry any consenting other they choose is no more or less important than another person's right to life. Rights are rights are rights. If you violate one of my rights, I may violate one of the rights you hold more dearly.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Coercion!

Bagels.

Exactly, it is not illegal to try and influence people (advertising). As distasteful as it might be to hear what some people say, they have a right to say it. Yeah it's annoying to listen to the Westboro Baptist Church people spread their hate, and yeah the Mormons are a bunch of weirdos in my opinion, but they have equal rights to spread their message so long as they don't literally force anyone to do anything is what I'm getting at.

And TW, I was not intentionally twisting your words. I saw you mention the Prop 8 in your post and that's what I built my response on simple as that.

[Pie]

I'm not gonna be happy till "separate but equal" is invalidated at the national level.


ETA: and even then, I probably won't be happy. But that's my problem.

[Shawnee123]

Ah. Arguing over semantics.
Well, there you go, it's not that Americans are more conservative than Europeans, it's that European gays aren't as pedantic.

So true. I found myself looking up the etymology of the word marriage, and wondering who got to decide it meant a religious union (and yes, they are arguing man and woman as religious tenet.)

It's a word made up of letters. Who gives a crap who uses it? Seriously, is Prissy and Biff's marriage somehow threatened because Jack and Doug use the same word? Methinks P and B feel threatened, not secure in their union, and afraid their God will let others who perhaps haven't fallen prey to social convention, bearing long silences over breakfast and lightly disguised hatred, into...gasp...heaven.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Radar

Our rights don't come from government. Government is just here to protect those rights. We are born with our rights and they are one segment of natural law.

So we only have the same rights as a worm or a coyote or a bird or parasite??? Huh?

Originally Posted by Radar

There is no such thing as a Constitutional right. None of our rights come from the Constitution. The Constitution was just written so that other people would realize that all governmental power is derived from the rights of people, and that government may not have any powers that we have not granted to it. This means we may not grant any powers to government over and above the rights of any individual person.

Since no person has the right to use force to prevent the marriage of others, they may not grant this power to government.

There you go interpreting again. That gets into the realm of opinion vs fact and assumption.

Originally Posted by Radar

If you violate one of my rights, I may violate one of the rights you hold more dearly..

Oh I gotcha why didn't you just say it was an eye for an eye - blah blah blah. That makes real good sense - in the sandbox or at recess.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

California also had, and still has, civil unions. They guarantee the same-sex partners same rights that opposite-sex couples have.

The battle is over the word "Marriage", and what it means, not over what rights certain domestic partners do or do not have.

Damn facts getting in the way of a good argument - - - again.