Who does homosexuality hurt?

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Ibram

But els's point, that still hasn't been addressed (i'm not tail-posting here), is that LEGALLY, god CAN'T have anything to do with the discussion. God is not part of the government, and therefore God can not be the reason to deny two people a social contract.

The thing to remember though, is the origin behind laws and governance of a populace. Morality comes from a variety of places, yourself or an external source like the Bible or the Qur'an. The point is God has everything to do with the discussion. Take Thomas Jefferson for example. The man is regarded as one of America's most enlightened and influential political thinkers and shapers. The man was not Christian, but a Deist who took morality lessons from the Bible, specifically Jesus, and applied them to society as a whole. His moral foundation, found in Deism and some of Jesus' teachings, very much so shaped how he thought man should interact within society and how governments should relate with men.

Again, that's wonderful, but LEGALLY speaking, it is NOT the government's business at ALL how you feel spiritually. Yes, two people can feel that for eachother and not need marriage at all, but if they want the LEGAL rights associated with the LEGAL contract of marriage, they deserve it. Of course marriage is more than just signing forms. But to the GOVERNMENT, it shouldn't be. In a legal sense, only the legal agreement matters.

I agree 100%.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I didn't say you should, only that your actions often hurt the ones you love or that love you the most as you attempt to go off and define yourself.

Right out of the mouth of the Me Generation. Just because they love you does not mean that your actions, any actions or decisions in your life, cannot be hurtful to them in someway and you at least admit that you don't care if you hurt them, as long as you are happy.

I didn't say they didn't love you or would not love you, only that your actions can hurt them in your atttempt to be whom ever you want to be.

Absolutely. But there is no requirement for them to continue to support you even if they love you. Just because they love you does not mean they owe you financial, material, or emotional support. That kind of attitude says that the only thing in life is what is important to you and screw what they think.

This closely resembles a few of the conversations I had with my dad when I was 19/20ish. Wow. Talk about flashbacks.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Ahhhhh, it all comes down to money in the end, Merc?
"If you're gonna be a mary-queen you'll not get a penny out of me!"?
Fair enough. If a child denies the sexual preference they were born with just to get financial, material, or emotional support from their parents then they deserve eachother.

Well - perhaps not the emotional side of things, but it does make them kinda needy. Obviously from having such overbearing parents.

Why should parents support the life style of another adult that they don't support? Because they are your spawn? I think not. What overbearing parents? A bit of an assumption on your part don't you think?

[Tree Fae]

[.Quote How could anyone else's anything cheapen another couple's vows, if what you have is strong who cares what everyone else is doing?

That is the argument that annoys me the most. I have know so many people who jump right into a marriage and then are divorced 6 months later. But a pair of lovers who have been together faithfully for 10 years can't possible be married because they are both female. Oh no can't have that.
I don't need some church's opinion to tell me what is right and wrong. I know what is right for me and I am sure they know what is right for them.

Having left a marriage entered into full of love only to be handing more abuse than I plan on ever dealing with again, I know first hand that just being male and female isn't what makes a marriage.
Love, caring, respect are the needed ingredients and they aren't only available to straight people.
I was ashamed of the people in MO when they voted to discriminate against those who live and spend their money in the stores and pay the same taxes as the rest. As for them, Karma will come around.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Yznhymr

All tax payers suffer.

Please explain.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Why should parents support the life style of another adult that they don't support? Because they are your spawn? I think not. What overbearing parents? A bit of an assumption on your part don't you think?

Actually yes and yes and yes. They do owe it to the child to give them the support they need in order to succeed (finacial, emotional, everything) even if they don't agree with the child's personal life-style. The parent chose to have the child, their responsibility to the child doesn't end, ever. Even if its a druggie whore, they have the responsibility to try and help them, pay for rehab ect.
To me, you're comments make you sound like its all about "ME" from the parents side. I'm sorry but the parent chose the relationship, the child did not.
This isn't just for the adult-child's benefit, a good relationship with your child should be important, and instead of ostracizing them
A: you have more chance of influencing them to make good decisions
B: you get the benefit of a loving respectful relationship
C: if they're successful, they'll pass along the good fortune because you were a part of them gaining that success.

BTW: no when I hurt my parents' feelings it does bother me. I try to minimize damage, which means I hide alot. BUT I'm not going to marry the person they want me to (at 18 nonetheless!), and I'm not going to go to church. Those are my choices to make, not theirs, and although doing so would make them happy, it would make me very very extremely unhappy. Even though I tell them this (and its proven, I've done it "their way" in the past, I got suicidal) they deny that thats possible. So I love my parents, I know they want the best for me, but they don't know what is best for me. I'm not saying that I know either, but I'm a lot more aware than they are.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

The parent chose to have the child, their responsibility to the child doesn't end, ever. Even if its a druggie whore, they have the responsibility to try and help them, pay for rehab ect.

Balderdash... You raise the kid as best you can, teach them right from wrong as you know it, do your best to prepare them for life, but as adults they have to make there own way it the world. Any further aid is voluntary, not obligation.

Baby-->child-->adult, that's it, no parasites.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

The parent chose to have the child, their responsibility to the child doesn't end, ever. Even if its a druggie whore, they have the responsibility to try and help them, pay for rehab ect.

Forever? I do not think so. Since when? OMG is this really what the next generation believes? I totally completely and wholeheartedly disagree. The parent has a responsibility to care for and give their child the best they can until adulthood. After that, it is pure choice, not a requirement. Geez, this is like a scene out of Stepbrothers.

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

To me, you're comments make you sound like its all about "ME" from the parents side. I'm sorry but the parent chose the relationship, the child did not.
This isn't just for the adult-child's benefit, a good relationship with your child should be important, and instead of ostracizing them
A: you have more chance of influencing them to make good decisions
B: you get the benefit of a loving respectful relationship
C: if they're successful, they'll pass along the good fortune because you were a part of them gaining that success.

No, Its all about YOU - obviously. Whew?!?

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

BTW: no when I hurt my parents' feelings it does bother me. I try to minimize damage, which means I hide alot.

Do you think that is the best course of action?> Do you think that is the mature adult way of handling a situation? By deception and dishonesty?

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

~but they don't know what is best for me. I'm not saying that I know either, but I'm a lot more aware than they are.

Hopefully their years of experience have taught them more than you over your limited time on the planet. If not, then perhaps you are right. However, I would conclude that to be the exception, not the rule.


Where do you think discipline and/or sacrifice come into this equation? You (the child) said that you were part of their success. If so, how did you contribute?

[jinx]

Originally Posted by classicman

Do you think that is the mature adult way of handling a situation? By deception and dishonesty?

Are you serious?
Let's hear how you would handle the situation, Mr. Mature and Honest, mmkay?

[xoxoxoBruce]

First, define the "situation".

[classicman]

My point, Jinx, was that perhaps her parents don't fully know or understand her because they don't completely know HER. If she is keeping who she is from them, how are they supposed to be able to help and guide her?

[jinx]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

First, define the "situation".

The situation as I understand Merc and Classic to be describing it is; someone who you depend on for emotional or financial support doesn't approve of your lifestyle or something you do.

My point, Jinx, was that perhaps her parents don't fully know or understand her because they don't completely know HER. If she is keeping who she is from them, how are they supposed to be able to help and guide her?

And my question was how would you personally handle the situation. You seemed to have a problem with MTP's course of "dishonesty". So would you be honest and possibly lose financial support, would you try to hide your activities, or would you be a good but miserable dog? You. Personally.

[DanaC]

Also, as Merc said, regardless of the rights and wrongs of their particular viewpoint/belief system, those parents may well feel hurt by such revelations. For the gay son or daughter, then, it may feel like protecting the parents from 'harmful' or distressing knoweldge, as well as protecting themselves from potential rejection.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If you don't want to play by the house rules, you have three choices.

1- Cheat and risk punishment if you're caught.
2- Convince the house to change the rules for you.
3- Change houses.

[Aliantha]

When our kids leave high school, and either get a job or go to uni, they're going to have to start supporting their own lifestyle choices. If they don't get themselves a job, they wont be going anywhere because we wont be funding it for them. Even if they're studying we expect them to have a part time job to fund their wardrobe, car expenses and entertainment. We've already discussed paying for their books etc, but we wont be paying for the uni. That will go on hecs (that's where the govt pays the tuition and then when the degree is finished, it comes out of their tax. A bit like a student loan I'm guessing) just as both Dazza and myself have done.

There are plenty of people here who fund everything and buy new cars for their kids etc, but I don't agree with this course and I definitely don't agree with my child telling me how I should support them. If my kids were to lie to me I don't think I'd feel inclined to say, "that's ok, you're an adult now. I'll just keep paying the bills for you while you talk crap to me." Nope, that's not how it would work.

If they think they know better than me on how the world works, it'll be time for them to step out of my house and into the big wide world.

Here's an example for you. If I found my kids were involved in some kind of hate group, I wouldn't support them in their 'choices'. I am opposed to these types of behaviour and will not support them. I would still love my child, but I would never support those types of choices.