Psychiatric Fascism

[xoxoxoBruce]

A guy I worked with 15 years ago told me some years before that he was reading the Sunday paper in his underwear while his wife and kid went to church. They came and took him away because the wife had convinced her doctor he was acting strangely. The doctor signed papers on her word to have him committed. When he got out three days later the wife, kid and worldly possessions had left the state. Cute trick.
When anyone would tell this guy "you're crazy" he'd come back with "I've got court papers proving I'm sane, do you?".

[vsp]

Originally posted by russotto
Here's a page on PA's involuntary commitment process: http://www.mces.org/302FAQs.html

From that source:
Section 302 is the part of the Act relating to treatment without consent for observed behavior constituting a clear and present danger to the individual and/or others. The behavior must have occurred in the past 30 days. Under Section 302(a) any responsible party can petition for an involuntary evaluation by stating that an individual may be severely mentally disabled.

I know a guy here in Pennsylvania who rants and raves about how priests' abuse of children is equivalent to <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84862,00.html">"basic homosexual relationships"</a>, that upholding the right to consensual sex leads to <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84862,00.html">bigamy, polygamy, incest and adultery</a>, and who brought a deceased five-month-old fetus home for his <a href="http://www.signorile.com/articles/nyp75.html">kids to hold</a>.

How does one start the process of petitioning?

[headsplice]

When anyone would tell this guy "you're crazy" he'd come back with "I've got court papers proving I'm sane, do you?".

I had a friend in high school that had some serious problems. Once they figured out what was going on and how to treat it, they released him from the psych ward. Somehow, he managed to get his admission documents including the papera saying that he was nuts.
The last time I saw him he had both those and his release papers framed and mounted side-by-side in his office at home.
Hee hee.

[darclauz]

Originally posted by juju
TP, you have one of the largest perception filters I've ever seen. You're worse than a Christian!

umm.... hellllllooooooooo...let's not paint us with ConspiritorMan's brush, plz.

[darclauz]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
A guy I worked with 15 years ago told me some years before that he was reading the Sunday paper in his underwear while his wife and kid went to church. They came and took him away because the wife had convinced her doctor he was acting strangely. The doctor signed papers on her word to have him committed. When he got out three days later the wife, kid and worldly possessions had left the state. Cute trick.
When anyone would tell this guy "you're crazy" he'd come back with "I've got court papers proving I'm sane, do you?".

now if he had been reading the paper THROUGH his underwear, that would have been another story.... heh heh.

[wolf]

Originally posted by russotto
As for involuntary commitment, it doesn't really matter what the APA says; not every diagnosable condition can lead to involuntary commitment.

Very true. The behavior has to rise to that level of the person representing a clear and present danger to themselves ... for example, you don't see a lot of people with anxiety disorders hospitalized, because, as a dear friend used to put it, "they don't do stuff." Stuff, to an extreme degree, is what results in hospitalization.

Here's a page on PA's involuntary commitment process: http://www.mces.org/302FAQs.html

That page, while near and dear to my heart, is rather abbreviated. There are specific legal definitions for the types of behavior which can be taken into consideration for issuance of a mental health warrant. If anyone is really interested I can grab the pieces of the Pennsylvania Mental Health Procedures Act that provides said definitions, but I can give you the short versions here ...

Clear and present danger to others means that the person has physically assaulted someone or threatened to do so and taken some act in furtherance of the threat. (Threats alone are not sufficient for the warrant, you gotta do "stuff".)

Clear and present danger to oneself takes three forms under the PA law ...

1. Suicide attempt, or threats with acts in furtherance (like having a plan to hang yourself, acquiring the rope, making a noose and throwing it over a rafter in the garage).

2. Self mutilative behaviors (cutting or burning oneself without an intention of ending your life) or threats to do so with acts in furtherance.

3. Inability to care for oneself as a consequence of being severely mentally ill to such an extent that grievous bodily harm will occur if the person is not provided treatment. This includes stuff like not eating for days or weeks on end because of a delusional belief that food is poisoned, not bathing for extreme periods (lemme tell yah, nothing is worse than the smell of someone who hasn't bathed in a year, okay, mebbe dead guy is worse), dressing inappropriately to the weather (going out naked in the snow, or wearing multiple layers of woolen garments in the current weather situation). Inability to care is kind of a catch-all category with a very wide range of behaviors considered.

(now, there is a grave injustice in that being "302"ed permanently deprives you of certain rights even if the evaluation determines that you were NOT mentally ill by the definition of the statute. But that's another matter)

If the evaluation determines that you are NOT in need of psychiatric treatment, you do not lose any rights. (notice I didn't say that you are NOT mentally ill ... you can be crazy as all hell, but not meet criteria for inpatient admission on a 302.)

If you ARE found in need of treatment on a 302, yes, there is a right that is abridged. You get entered into the Pennsylvania Insta Check System per Act 77, and, if the system works right, you cannot legally buy any new firearms through an FFL holder. You also lose your concealed carry permit. Firearms that were owned by the person prior to admission remain their property, although in many instances the family will secure or dispose of the weapons.

A 302 admission is NOT an assessment of legal competency. You retain the right to manage your own affairs, to marry or make contracts while in the hospital.

Oh, and here's a nuance that a lot of people don't understand. Although a person may be involuntarily committed, they RETAIN the "right to accept or refuse treatment." Their liberty is curtailed, yes. And unless they cooperate in treatment their length of stay is likely to be longer, but unless the treatment is "deemed to be necessary to protect [the patient's] life and health or prevent [them] from physically injuring others" medication, etc. cannot be provided against that person's will.

Is there some other specific right to which you refer?

[wolf]

Originally posted by vsp
How does one start the process of petitioning?

Coupla problems with your attempt, vsp.

1. the behavior has to have occured within the last 30 calendar days.

2. must have been directly observed by the petitioner. Hearsay is not taken into consideration for the issuance of the warrant.

3. there must be clear statements in the petition regarding both major mental illness and dangerousness in order for a warrant to be issued.

4. the petition is to be filed within the jurisdiction where the behavior occured and/or the jurisdiction of residence. In PA, warrants are ONLY valid in the jurisdiction of issuance. (yes, patients who are wise to the system and who are aware that a 302 warrant is active on them have successfully evaded warrants by hiding out in other counties).

Getting Rick Santorum committed because you don't agree with him would be a very tough sell. You're probably better off voting against him.

[JeepNGeorge]

Why would the US gubment bother trying to prove your crazy. Why not just stop you and mysteriously find 3.5 kilos of cocaine and a couple of unregistered (and stolen guns) in your car. That would be a lot easier to prove than mental illness.

Or better yet why not just say you have a 'compound' and that you are hurting children and let the ATF boys have some matches (after you knock a couple of holes in each side for proper ventilation that is)

Not that I'm one of those wacko conspirecy theory people or anything.

But why dont' you go buy some land out in western oklahoma or texas, drill a well for your own water, grow your own vegetables and meat and don't socialize with people on a regular basis.

I bet you get some visitors in the first year.

[russotto]

Originally posted by wolf


If the evaluation determines that you are NOT in need of psychiatric treatment, you do not lose any rights. (notice I didn't say that you are NOT mentally ill ... you can be crazy as all hell, but not meet criteria for inpatient admission on a 302.)

Sorry, my info was out of date; this change was added in 1998. The original act of 1995 revoked firearms rights in all cases for someone evaluated under section 302.

[vsp]

Originally posted by wolf
Getting Rick Santorum committed because you don't agree with him would be a very tough sell. You're probably better off voting against him.

Been there. Tried that. Twice. Unfortunately, this _is_ Pennsylvania.

(Remind me to put a big red SARCASTIC HUMOR badge up the next time I post something like that.)

[wolf]

You missed my dry wit and humor badge also ...

(but it is harder to do in chester county, anyway)

[wolf]

Originally posted by russotto


Sorry, my info was out of date; this change was added in 1998. The original act of 1995 revoked firearms rights in all cases for someone evaluated under section 302.

Until Act 77 went into effect (I'll take your word for it that it was '98, which sounds about right but I'm too lazy to look it up myself), there was no reporting of involuntary admissions to a psych hospital ... any info regarding hospitalization was voluntarily provided by the purchaser ... although there's many a habitual drunkard who answers no to that question, just as people who have been committed under "legal section 302, 303, 304, 305, 402" may answer "no" on the paperwork.

But even before act 77, evaluation and commitment were considered separate.

Also, you don't lose your ability to purchase firearms over being voluntarily hospitalized or in outpatient treatment.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Make that Doctor/Lawyer Wolf.

[wolf]

I'm not a doctor/lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. Tasneem "I'm probably never going to visit The Cellar again" Project just happened to blunder into my medico-legal speciality. After all, I really DO commit people.

(and I've been committing a damn lot of them lately. It's not the full moon ... one of our guys actually did a study disproving this, published in Skeptical Inquirer. The boss thinks the weather fronts are responsible, I'm hanging onto the idea that it's related to the Mayan Calendar (Arguelles' Dreamspell count))

obligatory disclaimer: any information I provide regarding psychiatric commitment is specific to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Other state laws vary widely regarding commitable behaviors, length of stay, and court procedures. Check with your own local crisis center if you have an out of control or suidical nut on your hands, although I'm always happy to give pointers.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'm not a doctor/lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

Maybe so but you do know your shit.