What if... there were immortals?

juju · 08-15-2003, 02:19 PM

The subject of individuals gaining immortality has been well explored by books and movies. Highlander, Tuck Everlasting, the endless vampire stories... it's all been done before, and the consequences have been played out many times. Well, what if a whole bunch of people suddenly became immortal? What I mean is, what if a large portion of the population, at some random point in history, just stopped dying of old age? How might history be different?

Would the pioneers of the ancient west, the men who lived off the land and experienced nature's beauty as we do not see it today, really accept deforestation and pollution?

Would the American Indians try to take back their country, or at least some part of it? Would they use politics or force?

Would farmers of the old American south really accept the civil rights movement? Would it have even happened?

What would the adults of the 30's and 40's think of the open sexuality of 21st century culture? Would it be tolerated? Or would they have prevented it? Is our culture's open sexuality linked to women's sufferage?

How might our culture be different if one of these populations were still around to affect the future? Would they change their ways, or would they hang on to what they've always known? It's well known that old people become "set in their ways". Would their stuck-in-the-past mindset prevent cultural change? How much <i>new</i> is actually created by death? Is change itself linked to older generations dying off and the newer generations just not knowing any better?

I'd prefer to stray away from the subjects of individuals (e.g., What would Lincoln think?), as that has been done before. I'm also going to assume that being "set in your ways" is a psychological phenomenon rather than a biological one. We'll also assume that the immortals can be killed; they just don't die of old age. I do this because I have a specific factor of change that I want to focus on, and I just thought I'd try to limit the chaos.

Anyway, I just thought I'd encourage you Cellarites to try to use your imagination and see what you can come up with. What do you think?

juju · 08-15-2003, 02:43 PM

If you have 3,000 children, how can you be sure that that girl you picked up at the bar for a one-night fling isn't your great-great-great-great-granddaughter?

Undertoad · 08-15-2003, 03:06 PM

All I'm gonna say about that is, I don't want to get spam for "Hot taboo great-great-great-great-great-grandfather on great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter action".

But I wouldn't be surprised at all if I did.

Sperlock · 08-15-2003, 03:10 PM

If these immortals were resistant to change and (or) had the my way or no way at all attitude, we probably would have exterminated ourselves by now.

headsplice · 08-15-2003, 03:11 PM

Were I an 'immortal,' I would probably hide that fact as well as possible from the authorities and the general public. The last thing that I need to be is a rat in a cage being poked and prodded to figure out why exactly it is that I won't die.

Assuming that I were wiley enough to stay out of that trap, I would probably become fabulously wealthy and use that power to run a part of the world the way I see fit. I've always thought that I could do things better than your average politician. Presumably, I would be able to better judge the 'welfare' of the state as a result of my having directly experienced so much of its existence.

If there a big group of people that I were a part of that were immortal, that changes things a lot. I would stilll say we would be systematically hunted and killed or experimented upon until the little people could wring our secret from us.

juju: the trick is, don't get her pregnant. If you haven't learned how to do that in three millennia, joo got some larnin' to do. Other than that, you would have so many extremely distant relatives, who would care? That sort of brings up another point:
How fundamentally different would your ethics be?

xoxoxoBruce · 08-15-2003, 04:31 PM

Since the world is constantly in flux, you may not make the same mistakes over more than a few times, but there would be new ones to make all the time.
After sending you checks for a couple hundred years, Social Security MAY get wise.

Undertoad · 08-15-2003, 04:49 PM

To return to juju's question, I think that a group of immortals would probably form their own society after a while, preferring to live amongst each other than with anyone mortal.

I think they would find that they would have no patience with the fads and fashions that change over what is, to them, a very short period of time. I think what is important to them would be a lot different from what is important to us.

But that changes if you had an immortal life span but a finite memory, or finite ability to recall stored memories, like we all have. 934, I seem to recall that was a pretty rough year. A lot of those decades run together though, I moved into a cave for safety and drank a lot of fermented beet juice. French? I speak a little French, but it's a strange dialect from the renaissance, no help in Quebec in 2003. Hey, you look like my girlfriend from maybe 27 girlfriends ago...

xoxoxoBruce · 08-15-2003, 05:47 PM

Quote:

think they would find that they would have no patience with the fads and fashions that change over what is, to them, a very short period of time.

I dunno, UT. They might be like parents rambling on about every little thing their kid (or Grandkid) did or said. Pet owners also to a lesser degree.

Also, Juju do you mean long lived or unkillable?

juju · 08-15-2003, 06:01 PM

I mean that they'd just not die of old age. If they couldn't be killed, then you jokers would come up with all sorts of ridiculous, non-cultural changes.

Annebonannie · 08-15-2003, 06:38 PM

Well, if the immortals among us were to live forever, yet grow and age normally, it wouldn't be too long before that immortality were irrelevant anyway, their bodies becoming decrepit and minds feeble and wasted. A lot of folks might think "Wow, it would be fantastic to live forever. I'd do this thing and that thing, become wealthy..." But what if that immortality turned out to be a short mayfly moment of lucidity and the remainder an eternal persistent vegetative state?

OnyxCougar · 08-15-2003, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
If you have 3,000 children, how can you be sure that that girl you picked up at the bar for a one-night fling isn't your great-great-great-great-granddaughter?

That many generations down it doesn't really matter, does it?

xoxoxoBruce · 08-15-2003, 11:45 PM

Obviously they would be revered as teachers, sages and leaders. The wisest of all mankind to be respected and cherished.
Young nubile women would flock to their feet, wearing shear togas made of gossamer...er...ah...cough, cough...
Then in the 1960's they would be rounded up and interred for being over 30.
The end.

Whit · 08-16-2003, 12:12 AM

     Sounds to me like we are talking about eternal youth, not immortality. I'll proceed on this premise.
     I don't think I would change anything if I found that I wasn't aging. Truth to tell, it doesn't give you any "super-powers". Heck, you'd die just as easily. Also how would you get rich? All I can think of is buying a bunch of crap waiting 200 years till some of your items are expensive antiques and selling them. Doesn't do anything for ya today.
     I do see a change of morality in order. Why live everyday like it was your last when you don't have to have a last day?

juju · 08-16-2003, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Annebonannie
Well, if the immortals among us were to live forever, yet grow and age normally, it wouldn't be too long before that immortality were irrelevant anyway, their bodies becoming decrepit and minds feeble and wasted. A lot of folks might think "Wow, it would be fantastic to live forever. I'd do this thing and that thing, become wealthy..." But what if that immortality turned out to be a short mayfly moment of lucidity and the remainder an eternal persistent vegetative state?

Well, I kinda figured that if a person didn't die of old age, then at some point they'd stop aging, too, since aging is the cause of dying of old age. Plus, in all the movies where there are immortals, the characters don't grow old. Besides, it's no fun if they're withered vegetables.

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
I think that a group of immortals would probably form their own society after a while, preferring to live amongst each other than with anyone mortal.

That definitely sounds right, although I don't see how they'd create their own society without the land to live on. Most of the big continents have already been occupied for quite some time. They'd have to form an army, risk their lives, invade some other country, and force it's current residents out. It seems to me that, like most people, they'd already have quite an attachment to the country they grew up in. It's probably more likely that they would attempt to attain an iron grip on the politics of their own country. The long years would give them plenty of time to become wealthy, and of course that money would help them buy whatever laws they want. In effect, they would become like an "upper class". They wouldn't be superheros by any means. They'd be just like all the rich old white men who control things today, only they wouldn't look all wrinkled and grey. Because they'd control all the politics, they'd have enormous power to effectively veto up-and-coming cultural trends that did not agree with their own morality.

I do think there might be a sort of predjudice or elitism that would develop. Regular people would be seen as inferior and child-like. I don't think they would hate them, they'd just think they were better than them. Sorta like how my mom treats me, magnified by a thousand.

juju · 08-16-2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whit
Also how would you get rich? All I can think of is buying a bunch of crap waiting 200 years till some of your items are expensive antiques and selling them. Doesn't do anything for ya today.

I guess you'd have to use the normal methods, but you'd have more time to attempt to do it in. And also, once you did get a successfull business going, you could save up your money over a much longer period of time, thus achieving more wealth than an any mortal ever could.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whit
I do see a change of morality in order. Why live everyday like it was your last when you don't have to have a last day?

They'd be reminded of the fragility of life every time one of their own died. It would be a huge deal, a great loss, on the news and everything. Perhaps morals and values would change, but I think they'd still fear death, perhaps more than normal people.

08-15-2003, 02:19 PM	#1
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	What if... there were immortals? The subject of individuals gaining immortality has been well explored by books and movies. Highlander, Tuck Everlasting, the endless vampire stories... it's all been done before, and the consequences have been played out many times. Well, what if a whole bunch of people suddenly became immortal? What I mean is, what if a large portion of the population, at some random point in history, just stopped dying of old age? How might history be different? Would the pioneers of the ancient west, the men who lived off the land and experienced nature's beauty as we do not see it today, really accept deforestation and pollution? Would the American Indians try to take back their country, or at least some part of it? Would they use politics or force? Would farmers of the old American south really accept the civil rights movement? Would it have even happened? What would the adults of the 30's and 40's think of the open sexuality of 21st century culture? Would it be tolerated? Or would they have prevented it? Is our culture's open sexuality linked to women's sufferage? How might our culture be different if one of these populations were still around to affect the future? Would they change their ways, or would they hang on to what they've always known? It's well known that old people become "set in their ways". Would their stuck-in-the-past mindset prevent cultural change? How much <i>new</i> is actually created by death? Is change itself linked to older generations dying off and the newer generations just not knowing any better? I'd prefer to stray away from the subjects of individuals (e.g., What would Lincoln think?), as that has been done before. I'm also going to assume that being "set in your ways" is a psychological phenomenon rather than a biological one. We'll also assume that the immortals can be killed; they just don't die of old age. I do this because I have a specific factor of change that I want to focus on, and I just thought I'd try to limit the chaos. Anyway, I just thought I'd encourage you Cellarites to try to use your imagination and see what you can come up with. What do you think? Last edited by juju; 08-15-2003 at 02:33 PM.

08-15-2003, 03:10 PM	#4
Sperlock Elite Elitist Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 322	If these immortals were resistant to change and (or) had the my way or no way at all attitude, we probably would have exterminated ourselves by now. __________________ Every oak tree started out as a couple of nuts who stood their ground. - Anonymous http://informationthreshold.blogspot.com, http://spiritualthreshold.blogspot.com

08-15-2003, 03:11 PM	#5
headsplice Relaxed Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 676	Were I an 'immortal,' I would probably hide that fact as well as possible from the authorities and the general public. The last thing that I need to be is a rat in a cage being poked and prodded to figure out why exactly it is that I won't die. Assuming that I were wiley enough to stay out of that trap, I would probably become fabulously wealthy and use that power to run a part of the world the way I see fit. I've always thought that I could do things better than your average politician. Presumably, I would be able to better judge the 'welfare' of the state as a result of my having directly experienced so much of its existence. If there a big group of people that I were a part of that were immortal, that changes things a lot. I would stilll say we would be systematically hunted and killed or experimented upon until the little people could wring our secret from us. juju: the trick is, don't get her pregnant. If you haven't learned how to do that in three millennia, joo got some larnin' to do. Other than that, you would have so many extremely distant relatives, who would care? That sort of brings up another point: How fundamentally different would your ethics be? __________________ Don't Panic

08-15-2003, 04:31 PM	#6
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Since the world is constantly in flux, you may not make the same mistakes over more than a few times, but there would be new ones to make all the time. After sending you checks for a couple hundred years, Social Security MAY get wise. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-15-2003, 11:45 PM	#12
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Obviously they would be revered as teachers, sages and leaders. The wisest of all mankind to be respected and cherished. Young nubile women would flock to their feet, wearing shear togas made of gossamer...er...ah...cough, cough... Then in the 1960's they would be rounded up and interred for being over 30. The end. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-15-2003, 02:43 PM	#2
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	If you have 3,000 children, how can you be sure that that girl you picked up at the bar for a one-night fling isn't your great-great-great-great-granddaughter?

08-15-2003, 03:06 PM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	All I'm gonna say about that is, I don't want to get spam for "Hot taboo great-great-great-great-great-grandfather on great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter action". But I wouldn't be surprised at all if I did.

08-15-2003, 04:49 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	To return to juju's question, I think that a group of immortals would probably form their own society after a while, preferring to live amongst each other than with anyone mortal. I think they would find that they would have no patience with the fads and fashions that change over what is, to them, a very short period of time. I think what is important to them would be a lot different from what is important to us. But that changes if you had an immortal life span but a finite memory, or finite ability to recall stored memories, like we all have. 934, I seem to recall that was a pretty rough year. A lot of those decades run together though, I moved into a cave for safety and drank a lot of fermented beet juice. French? I speak a little French, but it's a strange dialect from the renaissance, no help in Quebec in 2003. Hey, you look like my girlfriend from maybe 27 girlfriends ago...

08-15-2003, 06:01 PM	#9
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	I mean that they'd just not die of old age. If they couldn't be killed, then you jokers would come up with all sorts of ridiculous, non-cultural changes.

08-15-2003, 06:38 PM	#10
Annebonannie Paramour of Paradigm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 41	Well, if the immortals among us were to live forever, yet grow and age normally, it wouldn't be too long before that immortality were irrelevant anyway, their bodies becoming decrepit and minds feeble and wasted. A lot of folks might think "Wow, it would be fantastic to live forever. I'd do this thing and that thing, become wealthy..." But what if that immortality turned out to be a short mayfly moment of lucidity and the remainder an eternal persistent vegetative state?

08-16-2003, 12:12 AM	#13
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Sounds to me like we are talking about eternal youth, not immortality. I'll proceed on this premise.      I don't think I would change anything if I found that I wasn't aging. Truth to tell, it doesn't give you any "super-powers". Heck, you'd die just as easily. Also how would you get rich? All I can think of is buying a bunch of crap waiting 200 years till some of your items are expensive antiques and selling them. Doesn't do anything for ya today.      I do see a change of morality in order. Why live everyday like it was your last when you don't have to have a last day? __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

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