View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[TheMercenary]

Maybe a nuclear holocaust in the Mideast is not such a bad idea after all.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

In some seasons the prevailing winds are from the west. Look where the fallout blows.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Yeah. 'Cause no Jewish parents teach their children to hate.

Given the actions of the Palestinians, why ever would they need to, uh, fill in?

Really, DanaC, an excessive and ill-considered bias to the Arabs looks like antisemitism from here. What are you going to do about that? You're shaking the pompoms for a bunch who cry "Victim, Victim!" all the hours of the day, while the whole of their actions scream "Perp! Perp!"

It disgusts the aware and open-eyed.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Really, DanaC, an excessive and ill-considered bias to the Arabs looks like antisemitism from here.

How bout you go find somewhere nice and quiet, and fuck yourself senseless with something sharp? No offense.

[classicman]

That has to be the most polite "fork off" I've ever read.
lol

[Sundae]

Dana - you are sworn off this thread, remember?
You can't do any good here.

[DanaC]

No. No you're quite right. This is not a good thread for me to be in.

[classicman]

This is the bestest threadest EVAH for you to be in.

[tranquill]

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Ah. Welp, it's long been my view that being hostile to the cause of the one full, highly successful democracy in the Middle East is the province of the rather slow of mind.

Originally Posted by DanaC

How bout you go find somewhere nice and quiet, and fuck yourself senseless with something sharp? No offense.

In other words, you're at least somewhat antisemitic, and you're on the wrong side, and you can't defend your position. Sorry, m'girl. Here, why don't you borrow this sharp thing? Oh, and this tube of lube.:p

Then it's time to fucking reform, DanaC. What you're doing is the kind of thing that raises American hackles.

[Undertoad]

Now that the Israel/Hamas cease-fire is on, what is Hamas doing? Going around shooting people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...prisal-attacks

Evidence is emerging of a wave of reprisal attacks and killings inside Gaza that have left dozens dead and more wounded in the wake of Israel's war.

Among the dead are Palestinians suspected of collaborating with the Israeli military. Others include criminals who were among the 600 prisoners to escape from Gaza City's main jail when it was bombed as the war began. Their attackers are thought to be their victims' relatives.

It's mob rule. It's also called, kill the moderates until only the extremists are left, a cult of blood and death, and the innocent people who are terrified by them.

One woman from near Zeitoun, south of Gaza City, described how masked men with ID cards showing they were members of the Izzedin al-Qassam Brigades, the Hamas armed wing, shot her brother in the legs. The family had fled the house but returned on 18 January, the first day of the Israeli ceasefire. At 8pm several gunmen appeared at the gate asking for her brother, a 36-year-old Fatah military intelligence officer who had not been working since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007. The men searched the house for weapons, but found none and later left.

Early the next morning they returned. "They started firing in the air," said the 23-year-old sister, who declined to give her name for fear of further attacks.

"They asked him to put his hands up.They fired one shot into his left knee. He fell to the floor and started screaming and saying: 'I didn't do anything.'"

He was then shot in the right leg and again in the left. "They were holding us back and we were watching him bleeding," she said. The victim is now in a Cairo hospital after two operations on his legs.

She said several of his Fatah colleagues had been targeted: "It's a kind of revenge on Fatah. They thought they were responsible for what was going on in Gaza."

Separately, Hamas is believed to have stopped Palestinians reaching an Israeli field hospital on Israel's side of the border at Erez. "We don't care about it," said Hassan Khalaf, Hamas's deputy health minister.

The world demanded the end of Israel's occupation of Gaza. The world now has what it wanted. I'm not sure why the world doesn't think this blood is on their hands. It remains, as the Guardian says, "Israel's war". Hamas terrorism will not move Jimmy Carter, who believes that negotiation with Hamas is critical to the plan:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...298296434.html

The former US leader said there was "no way to have a permanent peace in the Middle East without the inclusion of Hamas".

"Hamas has got to be involved before peace can be concluded."

Carter said reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah, the faction led by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, had been "objected to and obstructed by the US and Israel".

You got that? The US and Israel are responsible. Not Hamas shooting Fatah supporters in the kneecaps. Israel was responsible when it occupied, and now Israel is responsible when it has left.

And thus, unabated by any criticism, supported by all countries everywhere, violence the source of all Hamas' power... the shooting will continue.

[classicman]

sar/oh, poor Hamas. Its not their fault. They were forced to attack and kill them - don't you see it?/casm

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Either way, that doesn't prove that Israel is working towards a solution. A disunified Palestine cannot make peace with Israel and neither Israel, Hamas, or Fatah are working towards a unified Palestine. In fact, most outside sources are not supporting a unified Palestine either. Which backs up my original point that all parties are at fault. Actually fault is a bad word because most actions by every side are defensive in nature.

Note, I am not saying Israel is solely at fault.


Owned it in what respect? The residents of that land were born, lived, worked, and died on that land. Other people would come tax them for using land they conquered but it usually was still worked on by the same people.

This argument is literally no different than the Eddie Izzard standup on flags. Political boundries were not used by anyone outside Europe, therefore technically they did not own the land according to the Europeans. So, when Europeans colonized the area and set up politically boundaries, they got to determine who owned what land.

Doesn't that logic seem kind of messed up? Well actually it doesn't because the people with the guns make the rules but eitherway...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k


I've always wondered what made this land the Jews home and not anyone elses? They weren't the first people to live there, people have been living in that area for 10,000 years and Judaism is only around 3,000 years old. The area became Christian under 2,000 years ago and then Islamic about 1,200 years ago. It wasn't as if the Jews living there were kicked out either by the Christians, many converted and then converted to Islam. So technically, the Palestinians living there have been living there the entire time. The Jews living there now immigrated from other areas and do not have genetic origin to that land.

Or another view, why do Europeans have a right over the United States and Canada and not the natives? The natives were living there for over 10,000 years but we kicked and moved them around. Would the descendants of an Iroquois tribe be legitimate in "going home" and taking over New York?

I love that analogy.

The only way to make it much easier for everyone and not be hypocritical is to not give any group a right to any land. Jews do not get Israel and neither do Arabs. Nothing can be done to change the situation we are in so we have to deal with it.

If you disagree, show how Jews have a right to that land over any other group.


No, I agree as well. Hell, most Arab states accept it as well even though they may not show it. A small group of Palestinians are the only ones that do not, but they have got power through other means. Reread the original article I posted, it clearly says that the citizens of Gaza support Hamas not necessarily because of their views but because of the siege against them.

Now, I am not arguing that the siege is an ugly oppressive move. Israel is doing it to get rid of Hamas. And Hamas was elected because of Israeli actions. Those Israeli actions were reactionary to Palestinian actions which were reactions to Israeli which were reaction to...

Both sides are on the defensive and all three internal forces are doing what every other country in this world is doing, working to further their self interests. As I said, a peace cannot come without a unified Palestine and neither of the three sides, plus external forces, are working towards that.

Israel has been committing human rights violations against Palestinans for decades. Just because they are a "legitimate" government does not mean they are not also terrorists. If we didn't fund Israel to the tune of about $3 billion/year maybe they could actually work out their differences.

When Britain originally made a deal with Zionists for the land (which happened behind the backs of the Arabs, who had agreed to help Britain fight the Germans, and T. E. Lawrence, who was the British liaison officer to the Arabs), it was supposed to protect the people who already lived on the land by limiting the number of Jews who could migrate there. That did not last long. The huge influx of Jews and displacement of Palestinians is probably the main reason why the fighting started to begin with, because before this backroom agreement with Zionists, the Jews who lived there and the Palestianins who lived there got along. It was the Zionists who caused the problem.

Israel had many terrorist organizations well before the PLO and Hamas existed. The reason why Britain decided to leave and wash their hands of the mess they created is because the Zionist organization Irgun, led by Menecham Begin, blew up the King David Hotel in July 1946, killing almost 100 people, including Jews. Funny how Begin later became a respected and validated political leader, after being a terrorist, along with other political leaders in Israeli history. (Funny how we now call it Jewish resistance, and call Palestinian resistance terrorists).

After Israel declared themselves a state, they legitimized their terrorist acts against the people who had been living on that land for hundreds of years, and by default, the Palestinians, who were fighting a resistance against an invader who was put there by a foreign country, became the bad guys.

I am not defending the actions of either people. Personally, I don't understand why they can't just get along with one another and peacefully share the land. But I certainly understand the Palestinians fight more, because they are fighting for their land, for their freedom in their own land, and for their dignity. The Israeli government has systematically driven the Palestinians onto smaller and smaller tracts of land. And the settlements someone mentioned that they gave back, those settlements were created after forcibly removing Palestinians from their homes and putting them in camps, and then bulldozing the houses to make way for homes for Israelis. And if they refuse to leave, they bulldoze right over the people. In fact, an Israeli soldier killed an American student who was there protesting in 2003 with a bulldozer. And that is not the only example of Israeli military brutally killing innocent protesters or peace activists from other countries who are there trying to help Palestinians. I don't know how anyone in their right mind can condone such behavior from a supposed "democratic" country.

[classicman]

He said, she said. Who struck first. They all need to STFU & start over like adults. There is so much friggin blame to go around its pointless to mention it.
The problem as some here have pointed out, is that they are teaching their children HATE.
Nothing will change until that does.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Someone should just go and blow the whole lot of them up. Either that or just leave the bastards to it. Let them obliterate themselves.

There is no point debating the issue. There are no 'rights' in this issue. Only huge, mountainous, bloody wrongs!

Well said.