societal advances smackdown (0-1750 AD vs 1751 AD- present)

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Beestie

And what exactly did those batteries supply power to?

Apparently there was no other way that we could figure out how they supplied light inside the pyramids. Although it has been also speculated that these batteries were used to electroplate silver or other jewelry.

Battery

Assumptive lightbulb


Reproduction of bulb

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Oh I don't think so. Especially today. Even some high school graduates don't know what Vietnam was, much less would they be able to understand Plato, or the mathematics involved in the architecture of the pyramids, or the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. They probably couldn't even find Greece on a map. Please. It's embarrassing.

And some can't tie their shoes. So what? It's impossible to make every kid want to learn, you can only offer the oportunity... readin', 'ritin' & 'rithmatic... the important thing is to offer it to everyone, not just the rich kid scholars like in early Greece.

[sugarpop]

I know. And I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to point out how advanced some of those earlier cultures were. You said they just had the rudimentary beginnings of all those sciences, stuff we teach grade school kids. I don't agree with you and gave some examples of why I don't agree with you. You also said, They were far from developing the sciences we have even though they named them. And while I agree with that to a certain degree, it probably isn't to the same degree that you believe it. For instance, I agree we have, over time, built upon the scientific principles they founded. I do not agree that the science and math they discovered was only rudimentary, and stuff we teach children. If that were true, they never would have been able to build pyramids and cathedrals and other things they accomplished in the ancient world. Some of the military strategy we used today is based on anceint principles. Our form of goverment is based at least in some part on that of ancient Rome and Greece.

[Undertoad]

STFU of course you're trying to be argumentative. You love it.

WOW. I am completely stunned that no one here realizes exactly how innovative and complex some ancient cultures were, even by our standards today. Jesus. Do you not understand how developed ancient Greece was? Or Rome? Egypt? Mesopotamia? Without those cultures, we would be nothing. They developed astonomy, mathematics, chemistry

You mentioned chemistry. Prior to the afore-mentioned 1773 chemical revolution, the science of chemistry was called alchemy. The goal of the activity was to find direct routes to creating gold, silver and other such useful things.

Under that science, it was theorized that all things could be broken down into component elements. Those elements were determined to be Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether.

These are your "chemists" and that is pretty much the sum of their work from the beginning of civilization through 1773.

Good enough for sugarpop. It goes on the list and anybody who doesn't think that's chemistry has an ignorance to be stunned by.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

STFU of course you're trying to be argumentative. You love it.

I do admit, I love a good, respectful argument. I should be in politics.

You mentioned chemistry. Prior to the afore-mentioned 1773 chemical revolution, the science of chemistry was called alchemy. The goal of the activity was to find direct routes to creating gold, silver and other such useful things.

Under that science, it was theorized that all things could be broken down into component elements. Those elements were determined to be Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether.

These are your "chemists" and that is pretty much the sum of their work from the beginning of civilization through 1773.

Good enough for sugarpop. It goes on the list and anybody who doesn't think that's chemistry has an ignorance to be stunned by.

Yes, it did start out that way, but Muslims made it into a real science.
...The study of alchemy and chemistry often overlapped in the early Islamic world, but later there were disputes between the traditional alchemists and the practical chemists who discredited alchemy. Muslim chemists and alchemists were the first to employ the experimental scientific method (as practised in modern chemistry), while Muslim alchemists also developed theories on the transmutation of metals, the philosopher's stone and the Takwin (artificial creation of life in the laboratory), like in later medieval European alchemy, though these alchemical theories were rejected by practical Muslim chemists from the 9th century onwards...

...An early experimental scientific method for chemistry began emerging among early Muslim chemists. The first and most influential was the 9th century chemist, Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan), who is "considered by many to be the father of chemistry", for introducing:

* The experimental method; apparatus such as the alembic, still, and retort; and chemical processes such as liquefaction, purification, oxidisation and evaporation.
* Crystallisation.
* The chemical process of filtration.
* Pure distillation (impure distillation methods were known to the Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians since ancient times, but Geber was the first to introduce distillation apparatus and techniques which were able to fully purify chemical substances).
* The distillation and production of numerous chemical substances.

Jabir clearly recognized and proclaimed the importance of experimentation:

"The first essential in chemistry is that you should perform practical work and conduct experiments, for he who performs not practical work nor makes experiments will never attain the least degree of mastery."

The historian of chemistry Erick John Holmyard gives credit to Jabir for developing alchemy into an experimental science and he writes that Jabir's importance to the history of chemistry is equal to that of Robert Boyle and Antoine Lavoisier....

...Al-Sadiq also developed a particle theory, which he described as follows:

"The universe was born out of a tiny particle, which had two opposite poles. That particle produced an atom. In this way matter came into being. Then the matter diversified. This diversification was caused by the density or rarity of the atoms."...

...Alexander von Humboldt regarded the Muslim chemists as the founders of chemistry. Will Durant wrote in The Story of Civilization IV: The Age of Faith:

"Chemistry as a science was almost created by the Moslems; for in this field, where the Greeks (so far as we know) were confined to industrial experience and vague hypothesis, the Saracens introduced precise observation, controlled experiment, and careful records. They invented and named the alembic (al-anbiq), chemically analyzed innumerable substances, composed lapidaries, distinguished alkalis and acids, investigated their affinities, studied and manufactured hundreds of drugs. Alchemy, which the Moslems inherited from Egypt, contributed to chemistry by a thousand incidental discoveries, and by its method, which was the most scientific of all medieval operations."

Fielding H. Garrison wrote in the History of Medicine:

"The Saracens themselves were the originators not only of algebra, chemistry, and geology, but of many of the so-called improvements or refinements of civilization, such as street lamps, window-panes, firework, stringed instruments, cultivated fruits, perfumes, spices, etc..."

Robert Briffault wrote in The Making of Humanity:

"Chemistry, the rudiments of which arose in the processes employed by Egyptian metallurgists and jewellers combining metals into various alloys and 'tinting' them to resemble gold processes long preserved as a secret monopoly of the priestly colleges, and clad in the usual mystic formulas, developed in the hands of the Arabs into a widespread, organized passion for research which led them to the invention of pure distillation, sublimation, filtration, to the discovery of alcohol, of nitric and sulfuric acids (the only acid known to the ancients was vinegar), of the alkalis, of the salts of mercury, of antimony and bismuth, and laid the basis of all subsequent chemistry and physical research."

George Sarton, the father of the history of science, wrote in the Introduction to the History of Science:

"We find in his (Jabir, Geber) writings remarkably sound views on methods of chemical research, a theory on the geologic formation of metals (the six metals differ essentially because of different proportions of sulfur and mercury in them); preparation of various substances (e.g., basic lead carbonatic, arsenic and antimony from their sulfides).."..

Geber invented the following chemical processes in the 8th century:

* Pure distillation (al-taqtir) which could fully purify chemical substances with the alembic.
* Filtration (al-tarshih).
* Crystallization (al-tabalwur), liquefaction, purification, oxidisation, and evaporation (tabkhir).

Al-Razi invented the following chemical processes in the 9th century:

* Dry distillation
* Calcination (al-tashwiya).
* Solution (al-tahlil), sublimation (al-tas'id), amalgamation (al-talghim), ceration (al-tashmi), and a method of converting a substance into a thick paste or fusible solid.

Other chemical processes introduced by Muslim chemists include:

* Assation (or roasting), cocotion (or digestion), ceration, lavage, solution, mixture, and fixation.
* Destructive distillation was invented by Muslim chemists in the 8th century to produce tar from petroleum.
* Steam distillation was invented by Avicenna in the early 11th century for the purpose of producing essential oils.
* Water purification...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_(Islam)


I don't know, those things sound an awful lot like chemistry to me.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

If that were true, they never would have been able to build pyramids and cathedrals and other things they accomplished in the ancient world.

I thought they had help from the aliens, to which you already agreed. Now which is it?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_(Islam)

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[Undertoad]

correct link

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

I thought they had help from the aliens, to which you already agreed. Now which is it?

Huh? I never said anything about aliens, did I? I may have said I thought it was pretty arrogant to think that, in the vastness of time and space, we are the only intelligent life. But I don't belive I said anything about aliens building pyramids or anything.

[DanaC]

No. No, I distinctly remember you saying there were aliens and they were already amongst us. yep that was definately it. You can't change it now,. That's that.

[Shawnee123]

This all could have been solved already had anyone bothered to discuss Ancient Aliens.

[classicman]

Whats an Ancient Alien?

[Cicero]

I can't believe someone posted a list from civilization 4.

[Undertoad]

They've refined their tech tree considerably. Don't know of a better starting list.

[Clodfobble]

Game designers spend for-fucking-ever getting that sort of thing just right. It's their full-time job. You can bet that by the 4th sequel the list is pretty damn tight.