What do you hear when people say freedom?

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

you think we own this planet?
cause we don't.
we are without doubt, the earths greatest enemy.

Without us, what purpose does the Earth serve?

Do you place inherent value in dirt? We are not getting rid of that any time soon.

Do you place inherent value in plants? We are not getting rid of it all, and cultivating much in its place.

Do you place inherent value in animals other than humans? We are not getting rid of them all, and cultivating much that would not normally survive.

The way I see it, humans are the end-all-be-all of reality. Without us there is no reason to be concerned about the world. As for your moral issues with humanity... morality is not in keeping with the nature of humanity, it is true. It never is, and never will be. Morality is a goal that we work toward; we are always trying to better ourselves, and history records that we are quite good at it. We see how we can become better and set a standard to strive for, that is morality. Claiming that we are horrible because we cannot live up to a standard which keeps being increased as we improve is folly.

[Pico and ME]

We also cycle. If we get too destructive with our environment or each other, we just end up winnowing our numbers down and starting over again. We rebound and so does the earth and its other inhabitants. At least maybe. :P

[W.HI.P]

murder, theft, rape, don't make us bad in my eyes, they make us human.
its those who seperate themselves from the rest of humanity, pointing at some the others with terrible accusations that i'm looking at.

everytime you point at someone else, you're pointing at yourself.
...of course religion makes you feel better with the idea that they're gonna pay in hell, while you're on your way to heaven.
reality says that its all right here and now.

you have this great idea of your kind phaege.

Without us there is no reason to be concerned about the world

without us, no, the majority of problems that concern the earth would not exist.
we are the earths plague.

i'm sure the ant see's the ant as the center of the universe as well.
i don't see a greater value in the human... you're just as small

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's the difference between life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" vs "peace, order and good government".

[Sheldonrs]

It depends. If someone says "Freedom" in the woods and there's nobody else around, does it make a difference?

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Phage0070

Without us, what purpose does the Earth serve?

[snip]

The way I see it, humans are the end-all-be-all of reality.

You are the crown of creation.

[Shawnee123]

No, I am the crown of creation. Puh.

Will the real crown of creation please stand up?

[henry quirk]

"we determine the nature of the wolf by observing the wolf. the actions of the wolf determine the wolf's nature."

so, in your view: the wolf (a kind of bio-automaton…determined and generic) is the equivalent of a self-aware, self-determining, unique, human individual

if this is the foundation of your thinking, then it's no wonder you're on the wrong track


"we are the crudest thing on this planet."

if you judge humanity by the single measure of 'we've always killed, we will always kill', then we're not better or worse than any other animal

i prefer to judge humanity by the actions of the individuals who comprise humanity, and i prefer to judge humanity not only by way of the profane but also the holy

you, my dear whip, are a cog (a knucklehead mcspazatron)...does this mean all humans are cogs?

of course not: only the willfully blind, stupid, and simple are cogs

*shrug*

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yes, Wolf is "a self-aware, self-determining, unique, human individual"... more so than most.

[W.HI.P]

quirky, you're going to argue on the value of human life?

well lets see what humans have done on this planet vs all other life.

humans have poisoned the waters.
we've poluted the air.
we've raped the earth.

if in your mind, sefl awareness seperates us from the rest of life, then where is our will to survive?
we can be as self destructive as we want, its just that we're taking all other life with us.

what makes you so proud to be human?
you see yourself as superior to all other life, your actions prove the opposite.
self awareness hasn't served us that well.
you're in prison, and you call yourself free.

i see humanity as being at a pre-infant state.
which is the only excuse that could be made for our actions as a whole.

now you can point all you want bird fetus gobbler, but you're only pointing at yourself.

[henry quirk]

"quirky, you're going to argue on the value of human life?"

no

i'm arguing the value of the human individual, the single one, the idiosyncrat, the philosophical ego


"well lets see what humans have done on this planet vs all other life"

a pointless comparison: no other animal on this benighted globe, no matter how extraordinary it may be, does what any average human does or can do

find me a non-human to debate with and your view will hold water more cleanly

'till you can find me a non-human debate partner: your position, as stated, is simplistic, one-dimensional, pedestrian, and unoriginal

the fact that we -- you and me -- can have this back 'n forth dickering says an awful lot about the capacities and capabilities of the human individual, as individual, and in alignment with other individuals

koko ain't got nuthin' on me (or you, for that matter)


"humans have poisoned the waters."

and all manner of life still thrives in ocean, sea, and river


"we've poluted the air."

still seems breathable to me and to most of the life i spy 'round me


"we've raped the earth."

oh please: there's not a one of us with a cock big enough to accomplish that!

so (melo)dramatic of you, whip...


"where is our will to survive?"

i can't, and won't speak, for the fictional 'will' of the fictional 'collective'

however: speaking for myself, i intend on lingering 'round for another 40 years or so

you?


"we're taking all other life with us"

so what?

yeah: we kill things, we eat things, we waste things....so what?


"what makes you so proud to be human?"

not a question of pride in the species...the species i'm a party to is incidental...i do, however, take a great deal of pleasure in being 'me'

does that count for anything?


"you see yourself as superior to all other life"

certainly seems that way to me

i eat cows, pigs, chickens, sheep, deer, etc

some of these i kill myself...some i buy from the market...in either case: 'i' eat 'them', not the other way around

i certainly see myself as superior to YOU...your head is full of coggish bullshit, your eyes dimmed by (dead) rose-color


"your actions prove the opposite"

so: what actions are those?


"you're in prison, and you call yourself free"

nope...i say i self-possess; 'freedom' has nothing to do with anything


"i see humanity as being at a pre-infant state."

i see 'humanity' (mostly comprised of wingnuts) as obstacle


"now you can point all you want bird fetus gobbler, but you're only pointing at yourself"

in my experience: self-loathing is foundational for cogs like you

as the magic jew said: go pull the fucking log outta yer own eye, then you can tell yer neighbor about the splinter in his... --henry

[classicman]

My shit meter overfloweth.

[henry quirk]

"My shit meter overfloweth"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[abcde]

Henry, the views you espouse regarding human superiority make me feel sick. I'm not saying that I totally agree with WHIP. However, your complete disregard for all other life seems to support WHIP's view on human nature far more that it supports your own.

[henry quirk]

Henry, the views you espouse regarding human superiority make me feel sick.

(((good)))

(((the truth hurts...it should hurt...it should make you sick)))

(((the notion that you -- a single human individual -- have more value than all the chickens, cows, pigs, deer, geese, etc. put together should scare the bejeezus out of you)))

(((being a human individual is an awe-full responsibility)))

(((that so many abdicate that responsibility by way of adopting bullshit, namby-pamby, hippyisms, or by way of consistent poor choices, is a fucking shame...but -- really -- not my god damned problem)))

(((so: abcde, as i told the whip, you should feel absolutely free to discharge yourself on whatever foolishness you like...if elevating mere animals to the status of human is your bag, then have at it)))

(((if denigrating yourself, making yourself 'mere animal', is your thing, then -- again -- have at it)))

(((i'm very tolerant of all manner of insanities and inanities...i simply refuse to participate in them)))


...your complete disregard for all other life seems to support WHIP's view on human nature far more that it supports your own.

(((i don't disregard 'all other life'...i simply put 'all other life' into its proper place in the great, natural, hierarchy)))

(((again: find me a non-human debate partner and i'll be glad to reassess the circumstance and adjust my view...)))