Impeding changes to our Health Care system

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

LOL....your standard response when I ask you to cite anything factual to support your editorials.

Your attack is misdirected. I posted the editorial by George Will not Merc.

Originally Posted by Redux

you and I and the rest of us with jobs and insurance are already paying for the 45+ million uninsured and, for many workers...
Something has to be done to provide affordable and accessible health care for all and someone has to pay.

So what you are saying is that a Gov't run plan will save those of us who are already paying? Could you please expound on that and cite examples of when any Gov't run plan saved anyone money. Gov't run programs are inherently loaded with bureaucratic costs and obscene costs much more than the private sector and virtually always slow to adapt as the politicians and lobbyists have to get their "piece" of the pie.

Originally Posted by classicman

Your attack is misdirected. I posted the editorial by George Will not Merc.

It looks to me like Merc posted the George Will editorial....but you are often interchangeable.

I thought it was another example of a dishonest editorial:

reconciliation is not something new to the Democrats...the Republicans used it on numerous occasions

there is no plan to "put the nation on a glide path to a "single-payer" — entirely government-run — system" as Wills suggests and you highlighted.

and this closing bullshit about torture - four of the president's 15 Cabinet members are former members of Congress, as are the president, vice president and White House chief of staff. So seven of the administration's 18 most senior figures might usefully answer those questions, and this one: What did you do about what you knew?
Not one of these Cabinet members or senior officials were on the leadership of the Intel Committees..and therefore had no briefings on the torture memos.

Everything about that editorial was either false or misleading.

So what you are saying is that a Gov't run plan will save those of us who are already paying? Could you please expound on that and cite examples of when any Gov't run plan saved anyone money. Gov't run programs are inherently loaded with bureaucratic costs and obscene costs much more than the private sector and virtually always slow to adapt as the politicians and lobbyists have to get their "piece" of the pie.

I will say it again..since you dont seem to get it.

There is NO plan on the table for a government-run, single payer system.

The most likely proposal is a mix of public-private options....workers with employer plans could keep those plans... and to stimulate greater competition by including options comparable to the govt employees plan, which is govt administered but with a mix of private providers.

Small businesses would be encouraged to create health pools and join a plan comparable to the govt employees plan...administered by a govt agency with a range of private insurers providing various levels of coverage (PPO, HMO, etc) at varying rates, from which those small business employers/employees could chose.

One more time.....there is NO plan for a government-run, single payer system.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by classicman

Could you please expound on that and cite examples of when any Gov't run plan saved anyone money.

Okay.

http://www.newmotorcity.blogspot.com/

Toyota's RAV-4 will be produced at Woodstock, Ontario, Canada in a new factory that will employ 1,300 workers.

100,000 Toyota RAV-4's a year will be built, starting in 2008. The Mini-Sport Utility Vehicle has been a big seller in the North American mini-sport utility vehicle market.

Why is Toyota expanding in Canada rather than in the United States? Honda and Nissan have had problems bringing new plants up to maximum production in Alabama and Mississippi due to a lack of literacy and industrial training of the local workers. Company trainers had to use improvised illustrated materials to teach some workers who could not read at a high level to use high-tech production equipment.
In Canada the level of the workers education is so high that the training program you need for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before is minimal compared to what is involved in the southeastern United States.
Another major reason: Canadian workers cost employers $5 per-hour-less because the health-care system is a national, comprehensive system. In the United States the "Big Three" automakers are required to provide expensive heath-care insurance, creating an incentive to close plants and fire (or "early-retire") thousands of employees.
More vehicles are now produced in the Canadian Province of Ontario each year than in the state of Michigan, which was once the center of the automotive industry in north America.

[TheMercenary]

We have a health insurance crisis, not a health care crisis.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

[indent]reconciliation is not something new to the Democrats...the Republicans used it on numerous occasions

So now that is your excuse?

Everything about that editorial was either false or misleading.

That is a false statement.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

It looks to me like Merc posted the George Will editorial.

You're right - He did.

Originally Posted by Redux

There is NO plan on the table for a government-run, single payer system.
The most likely proposal is a mix of public-private options....workers with employer plans could keep those plans... and to stimulate greater competition by including options comparable to the govt employees plan,
which is govt administered but with a mix of private providers.
...administered by a govt agency with a range of private insurers providing various levels of coverage...

One more time.....there is
NO plan for a government-run, single payer system.

ok so you are playing semantics with "Gov't run" versus "Gov't administered."

Originally Posted by classicman

ok so you are playing semantics with "Gov't run" versus "Gov't administered."

Not at all.....you just fail to see the difference.

Medicare is a government run plan.

The Federal Employees plan is a government administered plan....with a variety of choices from among private providers, depending on if the employee wants a Chevy or a Cadillac.

And under the Obama and Democratic proposals.....the 2/3 or so of those working Americans with employer-based plans could keep those plans OR consider a plan comparable to the Fed Employees plan with numerous private providers.

There is no proposal to push those on employer-based plans to a Medicare type govt run plan.

One more time....there is NO plan for a government-run, single payer system....despite what you read in George Will editorials or hear from right wing talking heads.

[TheMercenary]

The Devil is in the details. It is not that clear Redux what the proposals are going to do and just how much of a penalty will be paid by employers to participate or not participate. They may not "make" anyone drop their plan but until the final details are worked out there are enough questions about whether the federal program will actually give an incentive to all the larger companies, like Walmart currently does, and drop their employer provided plans all together if it is cheaper to put everyone on the Federal dole. You will have to wait until the final plan comes out before you are able to speak with such surety about what is and is not going to be offered by the Demoncrats.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You will have to wait until the final plan comes out before you are able to speak with such surety about what is and is not going to be offered by the Demoncrats.

But its OK for George Will to write in an editorial "with such surety" that "the administration and its allies, without being candid about what is afoot, are trying to put the nation on a glide path to a "single-payer" — entirely government-run — system."

Hell, you should be holding George Will to a higher standard than you hold me....he has a lot more followers who believe his every word.

I suggest you write him a letter:

Dear George:

I love your work but you will have to wait until the final plan comes out before you are able to speak with such surety about what is and is not going to be offered by the Demoncrats.

Sincerely,
Merc

And in the meantime, there is no proposal on the table to push workers in an employer-based plan to a Medicare-type government-run system!!

Damn...what part of that dont you and classic get?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

But its OK for George Will to write in an editorial "with such surety" that "the administration and its allies, without being candid about what is afoot, are trying to put the nation on a glide path to a "single-payer" — entirely government-run — system."

Hell, you should be holding George Will to a higher standard than you hold me....he has a lot more followers who believe his every word.

There is no proposal on the table to push workers in an employer-based plan to a Medicare-type government-run system!!

Damn...what part of that dont you and classic get?

I think the part you don't get is that the model that Obama and the Dems are using as a change for our current insurance is based on models from the UK, France, Germany, and Japan. Under these programs all government administered health insurance programs, which are privately operated, are not for profit. As I stated the devil will be in the details and at this point we don't know them all yet. But to date what is being proposed will not work on a open market for profit model, a mainstay of our system, unlike all the others that the current admin and dems are proposing. So you really cannot say that this point that "there is no proposal on the table to push workers in an employer-based plan to a Medicare-type government-run system" when in fact that may be the eventual result. You may not say it is planned. I don't see it working any other way.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

I suggest you write him a letter:

Dear George:

I love your work but you will have to wait until the final plan comes out before you are able to speak with such surety about what is and is not going to be offered by the Demoncrats.

Sincerely,
Merc

Mine would be more like, Dear George, Great job. Keep pissing them off.
Sincerely,
Merc

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think the part you don't get is that the model that Obama and the Dems are using as a change for our current insurance is based on models from the UK, France, Germany, and Japan..

Bullshit.....the model is not a national health service like any of the above.

Rather, the model is the FEHB public/private model....the federal employees health benefit program that ofers choices from Care First (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) to various national and local private insurance PPOs and HMOs...at a variety of benefit levels and prices....and negotiating better pricing from the private providers through a much greater economy of scale.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

Bullshit.....the model is not a national health service like any of the above.

Rather, the model is the FEHB public/private model....the federal employees health benefit program that ofers choices from Care First (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) to various national and local private insurance PPOs and HMOs...at a variety of benefit levels and prices....and negotiating better pricing from the private providers through a much greater economy of scale.

Not bullshit. You are un-informed. You need to do more research. The only system that has true national health insurance is Japan and the UK in those models. Even in Japan the insurance is not a government run progam.

Show me the current plan by Obama and the Dems.

Read the Fact Check again: Government-Run Health Care?

Or the Obama plan from the campaign.

The model is a public/private plan to make health care more accessible and affordable.

OR better yet, how about backing up your own claim for once:

the model that Obama and the Dems are using as a change for our current insurance is based on models from the UK, France, Germany, and Japan..

Where's your cite?

George Will?

How about Michele Malkin?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

Read the Fact Check again: Government-Run Health Care?

Or the Obama plan from the campaign.

OR better yet, how about backing up your own claim for once:

the model that Obama and the Dems are using as a change for our current insurance is based on models from the UK, France, Germany, and Japan..

Where's your cite? George Will?

You have to know about the other systems to see the parallels. You obviously don't know about them so I suggest you do some research. I am not about to do that for you.