Vaccination & epidemic

[Undertoad]

I thought it was ruled out because it's not in vaccines any longer.

[Clodfobble]

It's been taken out of most routine childhood vaccines. It's still in the flu shot, which pediatricians recommend for babies of all ages every winter, as well as a handful of others.

[Undertoad]

Wikipedia says "some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older than two years".

Removed from vaccines 10 years ago. Surely the numbers should be changing if thimerosal is the (main) culprit.

[Clodfobble]

No one ever said it was the main culprit, it is one of many. In most cases they replaced the thimerosal with aluminum, which has fewer studies proving its toxicity as a heavy metal, but the studies that have been done show it is only minimally better than mercury. And as shown in one of the studies in the book you bought, the rate did slow down a bit (not the overall numbers, but the rate, because remember again that the numbers are accelerating,) but the study authors changed the data parameters again and again until they got the numbers to say what they wanted. Look at their own publicly available data in a more logical way, and there is clearly an effect from removing thimerosal.

Wikipedia can say what it wants, I personally know two mothers whose 6-month-old babies were given flu shots with thimerosal. There is a huge disconnect between the cover-your-ass age recommendations they may or may not put on the bottle, and what the pediatricians dole out. Because remember, they fundamentally believe the thimerosal isn't a problem, so why would they be careful with it?

[jinx]

Don't forget about pregnant women getting the flu shots.

There's an extensive list of combinations of toxins and metals in a long list of vaccines. Assuming that one component in causing one problem is... well that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you've uncovered information in your research of vaccines that would change my mind though...

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Removed from vaccines 10 years ago. Surely the numbers should be changing if thimerosal is the (main) culprit.

Thimerosal containing vaccines were not recalled. How long did it take to use up the old stock before ordering the new (more expensive) versions?

[Undertoad]

I dunno, a year? Surely not two years, these things have shelf lives and it's expensive to have big inventory.

Clod you've taken both sides of this now because in post 153 you said

The majority of the studies are on only thimerosal, which is basically a moot point by now, because most countries have removed it from almost all childhood vaccines anyway.

Either a study focused on thimerosal is useful, or it's moot. Why were the seven studies that reject your point moot, while jinx's is not?

Why cherry-pick the studies in this way? That study, not valid. That study, not valid. 150,000 kids in Denmark, eh probably wrong. But now, THIS study, AHA J'ACCUSE!!!!

Look at their own publicly available data in a more logical way, and there is clearly an effect from removing thimerosal.

Clearly an effect. Shall we have the correlation/causality discussion again?

[jinx]

My point in posting the study was to further question the CDC/HHS position that children with an underlying mitochondrial disorder are susceptible to vaccine damage resulting in PDD/autism-like symptoms. What are they basing the underlying part on?
This study shows thimerosal can cause mitochondrial damage. Were children damaged by their vaccines, their mothers vaccines... did damage from one vaccine set them up for further damage by another. Nobody fucking knows.

[TheMercenary]

Good questions. It is still one study done In Vitro. Doesn't mean that much at this point. More research is certainly warranted.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Either a study focused on thimerosal is useful, or it's moot. Why were the seven studies that reject your point moot, while jinx's is not?

Why cherry-pick the studies in this way? That study, not valid. That study, not valid. 150,000 kids in Denmark, eh probably wrong. But now, THIS study, AHA J'ACCUSE!!!!

A moot point can still be completely valid, it's just not as relevant to the discussion as a whole. Old studies on thimerosal in childhood vaccines are less relevant now because thimerosal is no longer in those vaccines. New studies on thimerosal in completely different vaccines administered to pregnant women are interesting because up until now no one has considered the pre-natal environmental exposures to be particularly significant. Maybe thimerosal has a moderate effect on a baby, but a very strong effect on a fetus--like, say, thalidomide. The point is we don't know, because the CDC is generally loathe to do any kind of research on this topic. A grand total of 16 studies is not enough to confirm anything, in any medical investigation, ever. Other diseases get literally hundreds of studies done, some conflicting, but after hundreds have been done it's easier to see what the pattern is. Congress actually ordered the CDC to do a comprehensive comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations in 1982. They haven't done it.

Another pre-natal condition that's getting a lot of examination is Vitamin D levels in the mother. I am actually registered to participate in a study on this and several other parameters, should I ever get pregnant again.

[Aliantha]

People don't go out in the sun enough so they don't absorb Vit D naturally, which means their body cant absorb calcium which of course can lead to some issues with babies.

[Clodfobble]

Beyond that, there is a suspicion that some mothers of autistic babies have a genetic impairment in their production of vitamin D, even if they do go out in the sun. The study I've signed up for (assuming I get pregnant again in the next 4 years, which is by no means a guarantee) plans to test vitamin D levels bi-weekly during the third trimester in women with at least one diagnosed autistic child, and supplement with direct injections as necessary to keep the numbers in a solidly healthy range.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

No offense OC, but when you're trying to garner credibility for your cause, referencing people who claim that the majority of people who receive the H1N1 vaccine are going to die... it doesn't really help.

I mean, come on. Is the flu shot a bad idea? Yes, I absolutely think so. Is it going to outright kill the majority, or even a significant percentage of the people who get it? No way.

Let me ask you this:

What if the govt and the drug companies that make the vaccines know exactly what they are doing to children and the rest of the population, and are doing it on purpose? (Don't go into the whys just yet. Just..what if they are doing it on purpose?)

Just think about that for a minute. As a mental exercise, if you like.

If you accept the possibility of that statement, let me go one more:

What if they wanted to get more adults than children involved? Children are covered with the childhood vaccines, what if they wanted to target adults?

Is it so crazy to even consider the possibility that the H1N1 virus was man-made, released into the wild, over media hyped on purpose, just to get people afraid enough to take another vaccine?

A few things to think about:

Do you really believe that the bioengineers are so bad at keeping records that they "find" 9200 vials of extremely deady shit? How do you know something is missing if you don't even know what you have??

Vaccines get contaminated all the damn time.

(if anyone has a philly.com archive subscription, please pull this article in it's entirety, I'm interested to see it

---
Karl Stark
Published on 2008-05-01, Page A01, Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA)

It is truly a stretch to think that all of these different companies have "accidental" contaminations of all these different "vaccines" from all these different plants over the years.

I mean, really. Can you just picture it?

"oops! uh, John, I um..."
"yes, betty?"
"well, I had a spill here."
"really, what happened?"
"well, I was doing some work on the AIDS virus, and then turned to look at my polio vaccine, and --whoopsie!-- some of the HIV went into the vaccination vat!! What ever will we do?"
"Don't panic, Betty. No one will ever know. And if they do find out, we'll just sell it to the Europeans. Something like this happened to Jerry over in MMR. Don't worry. He didn't get fired. In fact, they gave him a promotion!!"

Out of all the people that post on this thread, Clod, you of ALL people should be open minded enough to see that contaminated vaccines exist, that the govt is doing nothing about it, and it's only one step further to the idea that they are doing it on purpose, and advancing their agenda with a man-made virus and pushing their vaccination.

I told you on the post not to look at her politics, but the content of what she had to say about vaccines. Do not dismiss her as a kook, like a few people on this board did to you, Clod. Don't make that mistake and miss it.


eta: some of those links I posted in my first post, but I want to be clear, these are not isolated incidents. I don't understand why no one is even thinking about this facet of vaccinations.

[Clodfobble]

From HuffPo:

Autism Rate Now at 1% of All US Children?

According to data from the 2007 telephone survey of parents of nearly 82,000 US children, the odds of a child receiving an ASD diagnosis are one in 63. If it is a boy, the chances climb to a science fiction-like level of one in 38, or 2.6% of all male children in America.

If there is an environmental component to autism, hopefully scientists will want to know which exposures might have increased between, say, 1992 and 1996.

One possible answer is the Hepatitis B vaccine, (which also contained 25 micrograms of mercury containing thimerosal).

Introduced in 1991, it was the first vaccine ever given on a population basis to newborn babies (within the first three hours after delivery) in human history.

But according to the CDC's National Immunization Survey (which also includes parental telephone interviews), only 8% of infant children received the Hep B vaccine in 1992, when that birth cohort showed an ASD rate of 60-per-10,000.

By 1994, the number of children receiving Hep B vaccine had reached just 27% -- and the cohort showed an ASD rate of 66-per-10,000.

By 1996, the Hep B coverage rate had risen to 82%, when that cohort's ASD rate exploded to around 100-per-10,000.

Correlation, obviously, does not equal causation. And no one is suggesting that Hepatitis B vaccine is the singular "cause" of autism. But the uptake rate of that particular immunization is at least one environmental factor that did demonstrably change during the period in question.

A study published last October in the journal Neurology found that children who received the Hepatitis B vaccine series were 50% more likely to develop "central nervous system inflammatory demyelination" than children who did not receive the vaccine.

Most of this increase was due to the Engerix B brand of the vaccine, manufactured by the UK's GlaxoSmithKline. That brand increased the risk of demyelination by 74%, and patients with confirmed multiple sclerosis were nearly three times more likely to develop the disorder.

[jinx]

Engerix-B also uses MF59 (squalene based adjuvant).

"squalene has been used extensively as an adjuvant in animal models to
induce autoimmune diseases” (Asa, Cao & Garry 2000, p 61).

Watch the testimony of Barbara Loe Fisher among others before the House on Hep B on youtube.

10 years ago...

part 1