Kidnapped girl found 18 years later - Page 11

monster · 09-09-2009, 09:33 PM

Why?

TheMercenary · 09-09-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Why?

One is a volunteer.

piercehawkeye45 · 09-09-2009, 10:15 PM

They are dying for a cause and they know what they are getting into.

monster · 09-09-2009, 10:50 PM

So the executed innocents...... are they not dying for a cause?

And did they not volunteer by living and voting/not voting in a state with CP? ANd even if they're anti CP and protest violently about it, what were they doing that made them a suspect? isn't doing something dodgy in a state with the DP akin to volunteering?

Flint · 09-10-2009, 10:32 AM

I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.

As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person."

If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.

As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person."

If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so.

It is completely a moral delimma for society at large and the legal system. I don't execute people. They do it within the framework of the legal system. I am not ok with the execution of an innocent person. But I still support the idea of Capital Punishment as a useful tool to punish those rightfully convicted.

Flint · 09-10-2009, 10:52 AM

If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent.

This is a dilemma which only you can decide for yourself: facing facts, weighing pros versus cons, and forming a position.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent.

That is not what I said. You said that.

There are numerous moral questions like this in life. This one is no different. It is not black and white it is gray.

I accept that it happens. I don't accept that it is ok.

Flint · 09-10-2009, 10:59 AM

When you state two contradictory positions as if they can work together, this indicates that a problem exists in your logic.

2 + 2 = 4. If your position requires it to be 3 in one instance and 5 in another, the logical contradiction indicates a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not what I said. You said that.

That's right. My problem is the glaring disparity between the statements you are making and their logical consequences.

You support capital punishment + Capital punishment means an innocent could be executed = You are okay with that.

Quote:

I accept that it happens. I don't accept that it is ok.

Your support of capital punishment logically means that any possible death of an innocent that "happens" is "ok."

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

When you state two contradictory positions as if they can work together, this indicates that a problem exists in your logic.

2 + 2 = 4. If your position requires it to be 3 in one instance and 5 in another, the logical contradiction indicates a problem.

That's right. My problem is the glaring disparity between the statements you are making and their logical consequences.

You support capital punishment + Capital punishment means an innocent could be executed = You are okay with that.

Your support of capital punishment logically means that any possible death of an innocent that "happens" is "ok."

Do you support the killing of innocent people in Afganistan by US troops? Probably not. But I bet you would support the troops and understand that they have to do a job and sometimes innocent people get killed, as bad as it may be. It is not a black and white 2+2 situation. It is not a simple logic equation question.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 11:18 AM

It is the very fact that it is not a black and white logic equation which makes it a moral dilemma for society and the legal system, which eventually is responsible for prosecuting and sentencing these people to death.

DanaC · 09-10-2009, 11:19 AM

The question isnt whether you support an innocent person being killed. The question is are you prepared to accept the execution of innocents, which is the somewhat inevitable consequence of having capital punishment. Given that no system is infallible, you either support capital punishment and accept the reality of innocent people being executed. Or, you don't accept the execution of innocent people in which case you cannot support capital punishment. You cannot support capital punishment without accepting that innocent people will be executed.

Lookout at least has the strength of his convictions (if you'll pardon the pun).

It is not just a moral dilemma for society. It is a moral dilemma for you, as a member of that society and for you as a voting citizen.

Flint · 09-10-2009, 11:19 AM

When facing a decision you evaluate all possible aspects and weigh them against each other to form your postition. This can be a tough choice, but one of the things you cannot do, in reality, is simply ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable. If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Given that no system is infallible, you either support capital punishment and accept the reality of innocent people being executed.

I have stated that I understand it happens but I am not "ok" with it as that is how the question was poised to me. And whether you like it or not it remains a moral question for society and our legal system because there is evidence to suggest that innocent people may have been put to death wrongly and yet we still have Capital Punishment.

TheMercenary · 09-10-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position.

I have disowned nothing. I have not denied that it happens. I have accounted for my position completely.

09-09-2009, 09:33 PM	#151
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	Why? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-09-2009, 10:15 PM	#153
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	They are dying for a cause and they know what they are getting into. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

09-09-2009, 10:50 PM	#154
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	So the executed innocents...... are they not dying for a cause? And did they not volunteer by living and voting/not voting in a state with CP? ANd even if they're anti CP and protest violently about it, what were they doing that made them a suspect? isn't doing something dodgy in a state with the DP akin to volunteering? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-10-2009, 10:32 AM	#155
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again: If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic. As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person." If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-10-2009, 10:52 AM	#157
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent. This is a dilemma which only you can decide for yourself: facing facts, weighing pros versus cons, and forming a position. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-10-2009, 11:18 AM	#161
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	It is the very fact that it is not a black and white logic equation which makes it a moral dilemma for society and the legal system, which eventually is responsible for prosecuting and sentencing these people to death. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

09-10-2009, 11:19 AM	#163
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	When facing a decision you evaluate all possible aspects and weigh them against each other to form your postition. This can be a tough choice, but one of the things you cannot do, in reality, is simply ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable. If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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