Impeding changes to our Health Care system

Originally Posted by classicman

I really didn't read Mercs post, but are you implying that two wrongs make a right here? That whats good for the goose is good for the gander? That simply because it was done before it is ok to do it again?

I am saying that both parties work the system and often use every parliamentary procedure or rule they can to support their positions and achieve their goal.

Parliamentary procedures that one party may use to its advantage have been around as long as Congress itself. It is not "two wrong making a right" and the procedures are not illegal or unethical, but, IMO, simply represent the nature of the system at its best or worst to give voice to the minority party but to ensure that, in the end, the majority still rules.

Republicans have used cloture/filibuster procedures over the last three years more than twice as often as previous minority party in any given session of Congress in the last 50+ years. That is their right as the minority party.



I might find it frustrating, but I dont think it makes them scumbags.

The hypocrisy is the selective outrage....the in this case is the latest in the never-ending references to scumbags, whores and/or Nazis.....IMO, childish and more appropriately left to those at the level of the emmas and williamtalks.

added:
The follow-up reference to the "Savior".....more childish

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

I am saying that both parties work the system and often use every parliamentary procedure or rule they can to support their positions and achieve their goal.

It is not "two wrong making a right" and the procedures are not illegal or unethical, but, IMO, simply represent the nature of the system at its best or worst to give voice to the minority party but to ensure that, in the end, the majority still rules.

Unfortunately I agree. I think it sucked when the R's did it and it sucks now that the D's are. I am still hoping for the time when they ALL represent us and work toward what is best for us instead of them and their "people." Yeh, I'm a dreamer. <shrug>

Originally Posted by classicman

Unfortunately I agree. I think it sucked when the R's did it and it sucks now that the D's are....

My point was the selective outrage. It is not just the D's doing it now unless you ignore the spike in cloture/filibuster procedures (see graph above for you ) by the Rs in the last 2-3 years, in many cases, to disrupt the process.

One can question whether the R filibusters spiked because of other procedures initiated by the Ds or the D's resorted to the procedures because of the spike in filibusters initiated by the R....chicken and egg...although the Rs said on numerous occasions that their goal, with respect to some bills, would be to disrupt the legislative process as much as possible using any procedures available.

And as the graph further indicates, the Ds (and earlier Rs) used the cloture/filibuster much less often when in the minority than the current R minority.

But I agree a return to more cordiality and respect for the process that provides both sides a voice is preferred...but not an equal voice or what is the point of being in the majority?

The process was much more respectful 25 years ago when I worked in the Senate during the early Reagan years.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

My point was the selective outrage.

By whom?

The process was much more respectful 25 years ago when I worked in the Senate during the early Reagan years.

Ahhh - another piece of the redux puzzle falls into place

Originally Posted by classicman

By whom?

THe spammer who consistently calls anyone who might disagree or challenge him either a hypocrite or a partisan and whose own opinion he expects to be treated as factual while he dismisses the facts of others as partisan opinions.

You know the one...who consistently refers to one side as scumbags and whores and/or Nazis but claims not to be a hypocrite or a partisan.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

Wow, you really believe that?!??! What are you afraid of. You must be among the tin foil hats that fear Sarah Palin!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

THe patriot who consistently calls anyone who might disagree or challenge him either a hypocrite or a partisan and whose own opinion he expects to be treated as factual while he dismisses the facts of others as partisan opinions.

You know the one...who consistently refers to one side as scumbags and whores and/or Nazis but claims not to be a hypocrite or a partisan.

Ahhh yes but you are are whores. You and Nancy the Nazi Whore!

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Ahhh yes but you are are whores. You and Nancy the Nazi Whore!

Thank you for making my point for me.

I do feel a little bad...its like taking candy from a baby.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

THe poster who consistently calls my Nazi whore bitch and the woman I love what she is...

Ouch, Did I touch a nerve???? Are you offended? I am so sorry.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Redux

. . . who consistently calls anyone who might disagree or challenge him either a hypocrite or a partisan and whose own opinion he expects to be treated as factual while he dismisses the facts of others as partisan opinions.

You know the one...who consistently refers to one side as scumbags and whores and/or Nazis but claims not to be a hypocrite or a partisan.

Merc probably comes to these characterizations through his targets' manifest lack of anything he can recognize as values worth valuing.

Nor, Redux, have you been any too slow with the P-word yourself, here. And do remember, as your quoted post seems to forget in the phrase "the facts of others" that while one is entitled to one's own opinion, one is never entitled to one's own facts. Not even in representative politics. Reality doesn't give a damn about your opinion of it.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

And as the graph further indicates, the Ds (and earlier Rs) used the cloture/filibuster much less often when in the minority than the current R minority.

There are also more MAJOR issues going on now, wouldn't you say? I'm not defending either party's actions.

Originally Posted by classicman

There are also more MAJOR issues going on now, wouldn't you say? I'm not defending either party's actions.

Absolutely.

Like health care reform.

And for the first time in our lifetime, Congress and the White House have taken on the issue of serious and comprehensive health care reform.

The process has taken nine months, with hearings in numerous committees in both the House and Senate and town meetings around the country.

The Democrats will use the procedures available to them to prevent any further delay or obstruction that is solely for the purpose of delay or obstruction.

I have said repeatedly that I dont think the current legislation is perfect and most Americans probably agree for various reasons...it goes too far, it doesnt far enough.

It is built on an imperfect foundation (employer-based insurance) and IMO, to tear apart that foundation and start from scratch would be far too destructive.

But it does offer significant benefits to nearly all Americans....

...affordable and accessible insurance for 30+ million hard working people who are in the unfortunate circumstance of working for a small business that is not able to offer subsidized insurance.

--- greater protections for nearly 200 million Americans who receive their health insurance through their employer...no more exclusions, no more going bankrupt as a result of excessive out-of-pocket expenses.

And IMO, once implemented, with a much larger risk pool and new restrictions on insurance companies, it will reign in the costs that have been rising at 2-3 times the rate of wage/salary increases. Others will disagree.

Time will tell.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

it will reign in the costs that have been rising at 2-3 times the rate of wage/salary increases. Others will disagree.

But this HIGHLY Scientific chart shows that healthcare costs aren't rising as some would have us believe.