Impeding changes to our Health Care system

IMO, most objective people will withhold judgment until they facts....on costs....on whether it is all a lie... or how millions of those currently uninsured and those with employer-based insurance are likely to benefit...which wont happen until the law begins to be administered and people can see and feel the effect.

Those unwilling to wait have an agenda.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

IMO, most objective people will withhold judgment until they facts....on costs....on whether it is all a lie or whether and how millions of those currently uninsured and those with employer-based insurance will benefit...which wont happen until the law begins to be administered and people can see and feel the effect.

Those unwilling to wait have an agenda.

At least you stated IMHO. That narrows it down pretty well. I have referenced all of my sources that support my view over the last year, whether you like them or not. I support the views of subject matter experts over an anon poster who holds himself out to be a hack of this Admin and the current Congress in power. But we have been through this before, haven't we....

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

At least you stated IMHO. That narrows it down pretty well. I have referenced all of my sources that support my view over the last year, whether you like them or not. I support the views of subject matter experts over an anon poster who holds himself out to be a hack of this Admin and the current Congress in power. But we have been through this before, haven't we....

There are subject matter experts on both sides....cherry picking the ones that support YOUR opinion by posting THEIR opinion is not objective.

In the end, only time will tell.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

There are subject matter experts on both sides....cherry picking the ones that support YOUR opinion by posting THEIR opinion is not objective.

And that makes you and your opinons differnt how?

In the end, only time will tell.

Given the whorish spending by this Administration and the current power in Congress I am not willing to allow this to continue. and hopefully come Nov there will be a lot more people who think like me and a whole hell of a lot less that think like you. You are right. Time will tell and it may be the death of this Nation as we currently know it. Another thought I am not willing to risk. If that is the case more radical actions will need to be taken by those in the minority.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And that makes you and your opinons differnt how?

Given the whorish spending by this Administration and the current power in Congress I am not willing to allow this to continue. and hopefully come Nov there will be a lot more people who think like me and a whole hell of a lot less that think like you. You are right. Time will tell and it may be the death of this Nation as we currently know it. Another thought I am not willing to risk. If that is the case more radical actions will need to be taken by those in the minority.

I never said it makes my opinion different or better.

I have said repeatedly that, IMO,it is a good (not perfect) bill, addresses nearly all the problems and wont cost most Americans more.

Just my opinion unlike repeatedly saying "told you so...I am right, and those admin suck-ups are wrong"

Nothing more to say to you on the subject...for now.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

... addresses nearly all the problems and wont cost most Americans more.

This is false statement. If you believe it to be true IMHO you do not understand the business of healthcare in America today. And yes it is a business.

[classicman]

"If you like your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan."

Throughout the long health care reform debate, that promise from President Obama was one of the few constants, made to reassure the bulk of Americans who already have insurance that the sweeping legislation would not have a downside.

But now that regulations about existing employer-sponsored plans have been issued, it's becoming clear that many of the 160 million Americans with job-based coverage will not, in fact, be able to keep what they currently have.

Republican critics of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act point to the Obama Administration's own estimates that by 2013, 39% to 69% of employer plans will be subject to new regulations and not grandfathered in, or exempted from the new rules. House minority leader John Boehner issued a press release about the new regulations with the headline "New ObamaCare Tagline Should Be 'If You Like Your Health Care Plan, Too Bad.' "

That partisan rhetoric may be heated, but it's not entirely off base. The truth is that employer-based plans, which many assumed would easily be categorized as grandfathered, will be subject to the full regulatory thrust of the new law if they are altered in ways that are standard practice in the industry. Plans that increase the percentage of costs patients must pay out of pocket - known as co-insurance - lose their grandfathered status. The same is true for plans that significantly decrease the percentage that employers contribute to premiums or those that significantly increase deductibles or co-payments. An employer that switches health-insurance providers also loses its grandfathered status. These kinds of changes are common year to year in the current marketplace, since employers are constantly looking for ways to limit their expenses in the face of rising costs.

Still, while many employer-based plans will be snared in the regulatory net of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, many of those with this coverage could actually stand to benefit.

It will be years before it's clear exactly how much the employer-based health-insurance system will be upended, and only then will consumers know precisely how costs will be affected. It's already apparent, however, that protecting the current system of private job-based insurance was not a mission of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, promises about keeping your plan notwithstanding.

Link

[Happy Monkey]

What a bizarre complaint. The evidence that the legislation won't let you keep your plan is that if your insurance or your employer make your plan worse for you, they don't get to pretend it's still the old, grandfathered plan?

Is the fact that "increas[ing] the percentage of costs patients must pay out of pocket", "significantly decreas[ing] the percentage that employers contribute to premiums", or "significantly increas[ing] deductibles or co-payments" was "standard practice in the industry" part of what people like about their health care plan?

[classicman]

Just facts.

Obama: You can keep the plan you have.
Reality: Actually no you can't.

[Happy Monkey]

It's not "just facts".

Do you think that "Obama: You can keep the plan you have." meant that he would force insurers and employers to never change their plans?

Old plans are grandfathered in. You can keep them to the extent that you could ever keep your plan, before or after this legislation - based on the contract between your employer and insurer. This legislation did not change that.

But it did discourage the continuing worsening of the new contracts, by saying that if you want to increase employees' costs, you have to give up your grandfathering status. So some employees may be able to keep the plan they like longer than they would have been able to before.

[TheMercenary]

HM, the problem is that the people who are insured are going to eat the majority of the costs associated with Obamacare. And there was never any intent to protect the currently insured in that bill. It has only been after the fact that the lawmakers are now jumping through hoops to try to modify that effect. I am sure it is of no concern for those who have little to no healthcare insurance now. To the rest of us it is a huge concern.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It's not "just facts".

Do you think that "Obama: You can keep the plan you have." meant that he would force insurers and employers to never change their plans?

Nope, not at all. I would fully expect them to change as they had in the past.

Old plans are grandfathered in. You can keep them to the extent that you could ever keep your plan, before or after this legislation - based on the contract between your employer and insurer. This legislation did not change that.

Completely false. Read again for comprehension. That is the main reason why I posted the link.

But it did discourage the continuing worsening of the new contracts, by saying that if you want to increase employees' costs, you have to give up your grandfathering status. So some employees may be able to keep the plan they like longer than they would have been able to before.

Uh, no thats not how I read that at all. Unfortunately we really do not know how this is going to play out, but it is beginning to look like things will change based upon what most reasonable people would consider to be technicalities.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by classicman

Completely false. Read again for comprehension. That is the main reason why I posted the link.

Perhaps you didn't read my post for comprehension. You can keep what you have, as long as your employer and insurer let you. Which is the same as it ever was.

The change is that now, if they want to make the plan worse for you, they have to lose their grandfathered status.

Look at the list of things that end the status:

• Plans that increase the percentage of costs patients must pay out of pocket.
• plans that significantly decrease the percentage that employers contribute to premiums or those that significantly increase deductibles or co-payments.
• An employer that switches health-insurance providers also loses its grandfathered status.

If my company did that, I would not consider myself to still have the plan I liked. If my company decided not to do these, in order to avoid the new regulations, I would consider myself to have kept the plan longer than I would otherwise have been able to.

The insurance companies can no longer follow the plan they like - continually raise prices and decrease benefits without following the new regulations.

[classicman]

* Plans that increase the percentage of costs patients must pay out of pocket.
* plans that significantly decrease the percentage that employers contribute to premiums or those that significantly increase deductibles or co-payments.

How much? Costs increase all the time. For everything, not just health insurance. So if a plan requires the insured to pay a $15 co-pay for prescriptions instead of a $10 co-pay .... OUT.
Additionally if the premiums rise by (what percentage?) is the plan no longer grandfathered. That may or may not be a good thing. I think its situationally dependent. This again is an issue that may or may not be a good thing. If an employer goes to a plan that better suits the needs of the employees from one which doesn't - too bad, OUT.

* An employer that switches health-insurance providers also loses its grandfathered status.

ETA
So a doctor retires and "the plan" selects a new one to replace him ... OUT.
If a plan wants to ADD doctors to INCREASE the options for the insureds .. OUT.

Its simply not as cut and dried as you want it to be.

Which is why I bolded -

Originally Posted by Time article

Still, while many employer-based plans will be snared in the regulatory net of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, many of those with this coverage could actually stand to benefit.
It will be years before it's clear...

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by classicman

How much? Costs increase all the time. For everything, not just health insurance.

Percentage. Costs can increase, but the percentage of those costs that the employees pay can't. There might be some issue as to what a significant deductible or co-pay increase consists of, but once that's defined the plans will be able to decide whether to follow the new regulations, or raise the co-pay by a bit less.

So a doctor retires and "the plan" selects a new one to replace him ... OUT.
If a plan wants to ADD doctors to INCREASE the options for the insureds .. OUT.

Incorrect. Insurance provider. Not doctor. If your employer moves from Aetna to UnitedHealthcare, they obviously can't call it the same plan. Again, it is your employer changing the plan from the one you like.