Belgian committee votes for full Islamic veil ban

[squirell nutkin]

Originally Posted by Beest

I read or heard somewhere recently that the current ultra conservatism stems from the 1950's or so, old Muslim guys will lament the times when they were young when women didn't have to cover up, it's just a fad.

There was a great video series on youtube that was originally a BBC production IIRC, called something like "the power of nightmares" that examined this.

I'll do research and report back.

[Undertoad]

It's definitely true in the Persian sector.

Iranian pop images in the 70s

Looks like the West in the 70s

Miss Iran winners 60s/70s

[classicman]

French parliament approves ban on face veils

PARIS – France's lower house of parliament overwhelmingly approved a ban on wearing burqa-style Islamic veils Tuesday, part of a concerted effort to define and protect French values that has disconcerted many in the country's large Muslim community.

Proponents of the law say face-covering veils don't square with the French ideal of women's equality or its secular tradition. The bill is controversial abroad but popular in France, where its relatively few outspoken critics say conservative President Nicolas Sarkozy has resorted to xenophobia to attract far-right voters.

The ban on burqas and niqabs will go in September to the Senate, where it also is likely to pass. Its biggest hurdle will likely come after that, when France's constitutional watchdog scrutinizes it. Some legal scholars say there is a chance it could be deemed unconstitutional.

Spain and Belgium have similar bans in the works. In France, which has Europe's largest Muslim population, about 5 million of the country's 64 million people are believed to be Muslim. While ordinary headscarves are common in France, only about 1,900 women are believed to wear face-covering veils.

The main body representing French Muslims says such garb is not suitable in France, but it worries that the ban will stigmatize all Muslims.

In Tuesday's vote at the National Assembly, there were 335 votes for the bill and just one against it. Most members of the main opposition group, the Socialist Party, walked out and refused to vote, though they in fact support a ban. They simply have differences over where it should be enforced, underscoring the lack of controversy among French politicians on the issue.

Link

Gunmaster ... Any update from the front?

[squirell nutkin]

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmaresDVD <--Link to download the video for free

Wikipedia Article-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

The films compare the rise of the Neo-Conservative movement in the United States and the radical Islamist movement, making comparisons on their origins and claiming similarities between the two. More controversially, it argues that the threat of radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organised force of destruction, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is a myth perpetrated by politicians in many countries—and particularly American Neo-Conservatives—in an attempt to unite and inspire their people following the failure of earlier, more utopian ideologies.

Labeling it as a conspiracy is over simplifying the case. I would sum it up as: by keeping a population under constant fear of boogeymen or commies under the bed or al qaeda, it is easier to control and manipulate the popluation for political gain.

[Sundae]

The French have passed the law, but it still has to stand up to the European Court of Human Rights.

There's apparently a French businessman - Rachid Nekkaz - already offering to pay fines for the small percentage of French women who intend to wear the burka (est 2,000). Muslim headscarves (hijab) are already banned in French schools as a religious symbol. France is a hardline secular state, none of the "I'm entitled to wear a crucifix" here, thank you!

So those who cheer the ban might also think about the issue of freedom of expression.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

So those who cheer the ban might also think about the issue of freedom of expression.

What about the women who are being forced to wear them? How does the other side feel about that with respect to freedom of expression.

[Sundae]

I'm not pro-burka (or pro-niqah).
There are some women who wear the burka by choice.
These laws will force them to stay inside their own homes. That does not increase their freedom OR their assimilation to Western culture.

And for those women forced to wear the burka... well - the same only worse.

I don't know the answer, I'm just not sure punitive laws are the way towards freedom.
And that's from a freedom-hating European

[classicman]

I know SG - I just wonder what the percentage is of those that are wearing it by choice out. From looking at the pics in UT's last post, it wasn't always this way.

BWAHAHAHA = yeh you're a freedom hater - hahahahaha

[GunMaster357]

Yes, the ban has been voted...

The opposition is said to support the ban, but doesn't vote on it... I think they'll use this for presidential elections in 2012 to rally muslim voters.

There were 331 votes for it in the majority... very funny since it'll only affect around 2 or 3 thousands people, some laws that affect the whole french nation are voted 15 against 3.

And of course... 13th of July is the end of the parliamentary session for the year.

Regarding the freedom of expression, I didn't have the right to say that burqah or the niquab are the negation of women's liberty, I would have been marked as a racist and condemned to a fine, maybe even done some time of probation.

We are a country that choose to separate the powers of religion and state in 1905. Since then, public schools don't show crucifix or menorah or anything else in schoolrooms. If you want your kid to have a religious education, it is either in a private school or outside school.

[GunMaster357]

As for the guy who offers to pay the fines...

That's called incitation to break the law and can be, if proven, punished by fines or imprisonment.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by GunMaster357

As for the guy who offers to pay the fines...

That's called incitation to break the law and can be, if proven, punished by fines or imprisonment.

An old employer of mine did, in fact, get fined for this very thing. We were releasing a racing videogame, and the UK marketing team thought it would be a fun promotion to say they would pay the traffic tickets of anyone caught speeding on their way to buy the game.

[GunMaster357]

And the USA don't agree with France...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...Kkf3hxWjCFxtYA

Well, since we don't agree with them on other points as well, I don't see that as a problem.

Here's a link to what we face in our own Universities...

http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question...6074228AA2lD9n

What/How do you answer to that?

Mine would be bloodthirsty. Unfortunately, that student is right. Were I to say the exact same thing, I would end in jail.

[classicman]

Imma gonna post Gunmasters link for those who don't like to click links ...

Here's what Mohamed Sabawi just declared - A young sociologist at the Catholic University of Lille.
Sabawi is Algerian-born, naturalized French; This is more than promising.

Quote:

"Our peaceful invasion of Europe has not yet been concluded. We intend to act in all countries simultaneously.

As you allow us more space, it would be stupid from our part not to take advantage of it. We will be your Trojan. You have become hostages of your own human rights. For example, if you were to speak as I am, in Algeria or Saudi Arabia, you'd be at best, arrested on the spot. You Frenchmen are unable to earn respect from our (Muslim) youth. Why? Because they cannot respect a country that surrenders to them? France respects only what it fears. When we (Muslims) have power, you will not see one of our youth set fire to a car or rob a store ...
An Arab knows that a relentless punishment awaits him, as the thief among us will have his hand amputated."

----------------------------
-----------------------------

The very same Sabawi Mohamed spoke during a recent interview:

"The laws of your Republic, which cannot be governed by Sharia law, do not conform to those of the Koran and oughtn't be imposed upon Muslims. We will therefore work to claim the power that we have. We will begin by Roubaix, which is currently a city populated by 60% Muslims. In future elections, we will mobilise our workforce, and the next mayor will be Muslim. After negotiating with the state and region, we will declare Roubaix a Muslim City like an independent Kosovo, and we will impose Sharia (law of Allah) to all residents. The Christian minority will have the status of Dhimmis. They will be in a separate category and may redeem their freedom and rights by paying a special tax. In addition, we will do whatever it takes to lead them by persuasion to our lap. Tens of thousands of French have already embraced Islam voluntarily, as Frank Ribery, Garaudy and others, so why not the Christians of Roubaix as well?

With the next entry of Turkey into the European Union, over 80 million Muslims will circulate freely, taking care of Islamization throughout Europe. Currently at the University of Lille, we are building brigades of faith entrusted to 'convert' the reluctant Roubaix Christians and Jews, as they are to return to our religion, for it is Allah's will!

If we are the strongest, it is because this is Allah's will. "

A reality that many take for fiction and laugh while reading, but it's the truth.

[squirell nutkin]

I think the only hope for any country is to vigorously maintain the separation between church and state. Personally, I think the US is far too accommodating of special interest groups. The very difficult thing about freedom of speech is determining protected speech. If someone were to make a clear case that sabawi's speech was seditious or inciting hate or riot then it would not be protected.

For whatever reason, the US government isn't going after these people at all. I mean consider the McCarthy hearings. People were destroyed for far less.

[Undertoad]

University officer denies this person was ever on staff at Catholic University of Lille

http://adminor.univ-catholille.fr/do...ence-ms-08.pdf