Mosque at 51 Park Place, NY, NY

[Shawnee123]

You insensitive fucking bastard! I know a guy who knew a guy whose friend's second cousin worked at the WTC and he lost his xenophobic cat on 9/11! As him how HE feels about mosques and stuff like that.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

How so?
If you were closer to this perhaps you'd think differently.
I know people who used to work at the WTC and/or lost loved ones in the attack - thats pretty much what they've told me.

Honestly, it is more situation dependent than anything. Even though legally there is very little that can be done, if the mosque was sponsored or run by extremists Muslims, yes, that would be very insulting to anyone who was affected by 9/11. If the mosque is like most mosques in the US, and not radical, then there is no more relation between them and Al Qaeda as there is between a liberal Christian and the Westboro fuckers.

I think it is in bad taste either way but whatever.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I think it is in bad taste either way but whatever.

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[Sundae]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Honestly, it is more situation dependent than anything. Even though legally there is very little that can be done, if the mosque was sponsored or run by extremists Muslims, yes, that would be very insulting to anyone who was affected by 9/11. If the mosque is like most mosques in the US, and not radical, then there is no more relation between them and Al Qaeda as there is between a liberal Christian and the Westboro fuckers..

^ What he said ^

I think it is in bad taste either way but whatever.

WTF???
That's like saying no Christians can attend funerals because of the Westboro fuckers?!

You either have a Constitution or you don't.
If you guarantee rights and are justifiably proud that you did so WAY before any other country, then you have to stick to that, unpleasant incidents notwithstanding.

If you penalise New York dwelling American Muslims, tax paying, law abiding, family oriented people who came to America to live and worship in freedom then I have to ask what you have left to defend.

[Shawnee123]

But but but, Sundae, they might be here illegally, taking all the jobs cleaning hotels and stuff. They look different so we must be very wary.

Seriously, that is such a good point. What is there left to defend: a xenophobic nation that certainly didn't start out as such. Small-minded people are scared to death.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

If you penalize New York dwelling American Muslims, tax paying, law abiding, family oriented people who came to America to live and worship in freedom then I have to ask what you have left to defend.

How are they being penalized? From what I have been told those who lost loved ones simply don't want it so close to the WTC. When asked how far away was far enough - no concrete answer. You can't really draw a line in the sand on something like this.

Like he said ...

I think it is in bad taste either way but whatever.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by classicman

those who lost loved ones simply don't want it so close to the WTC.

I understand this, but ultimately, they don't get a say.

[Shawnee123]

Imaginary people rarely do.

[whosonfirst]

Bruce is exactly correct about 'in your face'. The imam behind the drive for this mosque has a history of supporting Islamic terrorists, and was NOT critical at all of the 9/11 bombers. In fact, where are all these 'moderate' Islamic leaders-even here in the US? Are there any? Yassar Arafat always condemned terrorists to the Western press-does anyone believe he ever did anything to stop it? Oh yes. they believe the Koran permits lying and deceiving us infidels to achieve their objectives.

This is definitely an 'in our face' effort. What will be the perception in the Muslim world outside this country---'We bombed their heart, and those stupid infidels allow us to put a mosque right next door'.

Will peace with the West be preached there-or will Hate America be spouted, and recruiting be going on in our face? What do you think? Don't give me the love stuff, give me the history.

Doesn't matter if even 99% of Muslims were not terrorism supporters. It is the ones that are who control the schools, learning centers, mosques, and are the only ones we hear from. They have the influence in the Muslim world because they hold all the positions of authority. NOT ONE has spoken out firmly and without equivocation against what happened on 9/11. Or in fact oppose the Taliban or Al Qaeda. They will never not support a fellow Muslim-they are not allowed to. And the handful of ordinary Muslims that stand up become pariahs in their community and are disowned.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by glatt

I understand this, but ultimately, they don't get a say.

Thats true, and sad, very sad.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by classicman

How are they being penalized? From what I have been told those who lost loved ones simply don't want it so close to the WTC. When asked how far away was far enough - no concrete answer. You can't really draw a line in the sand on something like this.

My point exactly. It's segregation. Catholic terrorists can shake the President's hand (McGuiness/ Clinton). Law abiding Muslims can't worship except where we tell them to. Sitting at the back of the bus is not equality.

Originally Posted by whosonfirst

In fact, where are all these 'moderate' Islamic leaders-even here in the US? Are there any?...
Doesn't matter if even 99% of Muslims were not terrorism supporters. It is the ones that are who control the schools, learning centers, mosques, and are the only ones we hear from...

Blame your press if they are the only ones you hear from.
Have you heard from the mosque Seema's family attend? It's in Houston somewhere. She was my work colleague and I know she was appalled that someone used her religion as an excuse to kill people.

Did you hear from Father Frank and Father Harris during the atrocities? I doubt it. They didn't support the IRA and their sermons were to a small Buckinghamshire community. Did you hear from Sister Una, who grew up and taught in Belfast, where the children would walk to school via routes lined with bombsites? No. But she was my headmistress. You might have heard from the Reverend Ian Paisley though. I know we did. Why? Spewing hate is far more newsworthy than preaching on the nuances of The Sermon on the Mount or why Jesus really blasted the fig tree, or what St Paul really meant.

(Disclaimer - Paisley is a Protestant and therefore on the other side of the divide, but he preached hate as much as any un-named Catholic priest supporting the glory of the Republic from the pulpit).

If 99% of Muslims are peaceful and you have freedom of speech and the right to assemble and the right to worship enshrined in law (and I admire you for it) then I fail to see how it can be American to deny it. American does not equal Christian. American equals a commitment to these ideals. Ideals which some Muslims probably hold more dear than some Christians at this point.

I'm sorry that Muslims bombed the World Trade Centre. Many people lost their lives, or their relatives, their livelihood, sense of peace, their property etc etc. When? Where? In attacks in the British Isles by Protestants and Catholics during The Troubles. Don't blame religion for genocidal tendencies. Blame people.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

My point exactly. It's segregation. Catholic terrorists can shake the President's hand (McGuiness/ Clinton). Law abiding Muslims can't worship except where we tell them to. Sitting at the back of the bus is not equality.

What the hell are you on about? I shared the opinions of those I knew about the mosque and its proximity to the WTC. THAT IS ALL.
Ferfuxache.

[Shawnee123]

Don't blame religion for genocidal tendencies. Blame people.

And many of the same folks get really angry if we imply that it's guns that kill people, not people who kill people.

[whosonfirst]

It is the people we should be concerned about. Again- where are the 'moderate leaders' of the Muslim community to temper the inflammatory rhetoric of those who hate us? Are there any? Every time a deep look is taken at a 'leader' he turns out to sympathize or outright support terrorism either by actions, statements or inaction.
You do have a right to conduct your religion as you see fit, but not an unbridled right. As soon as you threaten the public safety, or incite someone else to, you lose the right. And, again, not one Muslim clerical leader has stood with us against the terrorists. Have a name?

Never been any hesitation at squashing or verbally attacking dangerous Christians in this country. And rightly so. Because they are in the majority, its ok? So when Muslims are in the majority then we will be ok with demanding a higher level of personal responsibility by them.

Uh oh. Too late by then. We'll all be Muslim or be headless.

The only religion that advocates forced conversion or death. Face the reality of our enemy. Harsh words but true. That's what the Muslim leadership says. Doesn't matter what we think. We're just politically correct dopes. Why are they held to a lower standard than others?

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by whosonfirst

It is the people we should be concerned about. Again- where are the 'moderate leaders' of the Muslim community to temper the inflammatory rhetoric of those who hate us? Are there any? blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., ipso facto, blah

We have met the enemy and he is us.