Gay Marriage

[wolf]

I'm reserving judgment at this time. He has thus far only indicated that he is clearly too self-involved to bother reading more than the last response on a couple of threads, and has nary a clue about the people he's attempting to interact with.

He called me a socialist. I don't think I've heard anything so funny in years.

Jim, welcome, but you don't have to be adversarial in every thread, you know, unless that really does reflect your actual beliefs/opinions.

[wolf]

Originally posted by jimf747
Can you explain your sudden move toward name-calling?

1. It's what we do here.

2. You started it.

[jimf747]

Originally posted by wolf
I'm reserving judgment at this time. He has thus far only indicated that he is clearly too self-involved to bother reading more than the last response on a couple of threads, and has nary a clue about the people he's attempting to interact with.

He called me a socialist. I don't think I've heard anything so funny in years.

Jim, welcome, but you don't have to be adversarial in every thread, you know, unless that really does reflect your actual beliefs/opinions.

I didn’t call you anything… I asked a simple question

[jimf747]

Originally posted by wolf


1. It's what we do here.

2. You started it.

I started nothing, you made the choice.

[juju]

Originally posted by jimf747
Can you explain your sudden move toward name-calling?

It's only name calling if it's not true, and besides that, I'm asking, not telling.

By troll, I mean this.

[bmgb]

Originally posted by jimf747
Well guess what… the bible is the reference for law. Without religion… you have no definitions for morality or human worth.

Oh, dear. This thread has already addressed the use of the most bloody, violent and sexist book in human history (the Bible) as basis for law. Read the thread.

...people wanting to marry their pet mouse and such!

This ridiculous argument has been addressed over and over in this thread. Read the thread. If you don't want to do that, I have two words for you: "CONSENTING ADULTS."

Sodomy is considered an unnatural act by law, as is bestiality etc.

Try reading about what the law actually says about sodomy in the US (and throughout the world). We are discussing here gay marriage in the US, in which sodomy is legal in a huge majority of states.

[jimf747]

Originally posted by bmgb


Try reading about what the law actually says about sodomy in the US (and throughout the world). We are discussing here gay marriage in the US, in which sodomy is legal in a huge majority of states.

It is quite unfortunate that the human being is basically an aggressive being isn’t it… sad but true… and “Oh Dear” it isn’t going to change. As I said… I could care less what gay people do… but you need a dose of reality my friend. I’m telling you that you have no choice but to address the Bible and the precedents under the law. On the ceiling above the Supreme Court is the Ten Commandments… who do you think put them there. If you’re a gay person then you are in the population minority… you don’t get to tell the majority what they should do or what they should think… you only get to ask.

[juju]

Yep, you're full of shit.

Can you ask God when these dummy/troll accounts are going to stop?

[jimf747]

Originally posted by juju
Yep, you're full of shit.

Can you ask God when these dummy/troll accounts are going to stop?

Like others of ilk juju, you can’t except an argument.. can you. Its real safe to say someone is full of shit on a forum isn’t it, you can get away with it. Can’t argue the point can you… so right away you get mad and start acting like some fool who lacks emotional control. What divine presence of mind do you posses that makes you so sure you’re not the one who is “Full of shit” as you put it.

[jimf747]

Originally posted by juju
Yep, you're full of shit.

Can you ask God when these dummy/troll accounts are going to stop?

Interesting isn’t it… that your comments are exclusionary in nature but yet you preach inclusion.

[elSicomoro]

You want us to accept your arguments, Jimmy? Back 'em up. Put some support into your statements.

Show us that the Bible is the reference for all law in the United States.

Show us how morality and human worth have no definitions without religion.

Show us how sodomy is considered an unnatural act by law in the US. (You simply cannot do this b/c of the recent Supreme Court ruling, but I'd sure like to see you try.)

Make a legitimate supported connection between sodomy and beastiality, and how the floodgates will open if gay marriage is allowed by law.

Show us that minorities don't get to rule over the majority. (You simply cannot do this b/c of the existence of apartheid-era South Africa, but I'd love to see you try this one too.)

Looks like you have some research to do...get on it!

[jimf747]

Originally posted by sycamore
You want us to accept your arguments, Jimmy? Back 'em up. Put some support into your statements.

Show us that the Bible is the reference for all law in the United States.

Show us how morality and human worth have no definitions without religion.

Show us how sodomy is considered an unnatural act by law in the US. (You simply cannot do this b/c of the recent Supreme Court ruling, but I'd sure like to see you try.)

Make a legitimate supported connection between sodomy and beastiality, and how the floodgates will open if gay marriage is allowed by law.

Show us that minorities don't get to rule over the majority. (You simply cannot do this b/c of the existence of apartheid-era South Africa, but I'd love to see you try this one too.)

Looks like you have some research to do...get on it!

The U.S. was founded by a religious people looking to practice religion without discrimination. The simple
fact that the Ten Commandments are written on the ceiling of the Supreme Court should tell you something. When you go to court you swear to God to tell the truth! The oaths of judicial office are made with the right hand on the Bible. The Ten Commandments are considered the first laws handed to civilized men by God. There is more then enough material floating around the net to support any kind research along these lines.

Without religion the actual word morality has no meaning with relation to cause and effect. Without religion the human being has worth expressed in dollars and sense… 68 cents in materials. The ideas of right and wrong need to have certain preconditions to have meaning. For instance there were many tribal cultures that sacrificed people for many supernatural ideas… those tribes considered their actions moral and right, do you, if you don’t, then you have to ask why. If you say a human being has value then you must define the substance or units with which this value is expressed… shall we use dollars and cents or the promise immortality and the immortal soul. Communism and Socialism preached atheism and killed over 100 million people, those people who did the killing went home and hugged their kids and slept well. They slept well because they believed that they were not going to pay any price for their actions. In their eyes the people who they killed had no supernatural value.

There are people in New York that have been charged with Sodomy recently. Be very careful what you put forth. Without Sodomy laws it would not be possible to charge a child molester with Sodomy… if that was the extent of the transgression. How would you like to come home and find you 9-year-old child has been sodomized and you couldn’t do anything about it except maybe charge the person with a minor assault.


I never made the connection between Sodomy and Bestiality, I only said that they are considered to be un natural acts under the law. It’s the phrase “un-natural act” that would generate the problems in the courtrooms and legal circles, lawyers would have a field day with it, and they have hundreds of years of legal precedent to call on.

[juju]

Originally posted by jimf747
Like others of ilk juju, you can’t except an argument.. can you. Its real safe to say someone is full of shit on a forum isn’t it, you can get away with it. Can’t argue the point can you… so right away you get mad and start acting like some fool who lacks emotional control. What divine presence of mind do you posses that makes you so sure you’re not the one who is “Full of shit” as you put it.

I've already argued against the points you brought up earlier in the thread.

I'm not mad or out of control emotionally. That's the whole point. I'm accusing you of attempting to incite that in others purely for your own pleasure.

Now, I may be wrong (in which case I'd apologize), but I think I'm right.

[jimf747]

Originally posted by juju
I've already argued against the points you brought up earlier in the thread.

I'm not mad or out of control emotionally. That's the whole point. I'm accusing you of attempting to incite that in others purely for your own pleasure.

Now, I may be wrong (in which case I'd apologize), but I think I'm right.

I have no intention to incite anything. I see what I consider topographical arguments that are very complex, some without solution. I have lawyer friends who are waiting to buy a yacht based on the court cases that could arise from what’s being discussed here. My point is simply to put forth the idea that what may seem logical in today’s society is not without dangerous unknowns that lie under the surface of what might appear to be logical path to follow. People may get upset over the Sodomy word etc. Nevertheless, there will not be any legal discussion in the halls of justice without it. The devil is in the details… always… and they are not going away. The Bible belt in the southern part of the country will make news every night when it comes to gay marriage… no one is going to change their minds… or many others for that matter. It’s my contention that if one is going to discuss this topic then nothing should be off the board

[richlevy]

Originally posted by jimf747
It doesn’t matter what you think, it only matters what the judge and jury thinks. And by the way, I don’t care what gay people think about my life style, they are a small minority in nature and the country. Minorities don’t get to rule over majorities’… simple fact of nature. In addition, Sodomy and such are the topics when it comes to the law, whether you like it or not. As for the comment concerning human worth and such…you are missing the essential point, you logic has no primary foundation to examine the idea of the word worth used in this context. You can’t even define the word without religion. The very fundamental idea of good and bad come from religion. When you say “good people”, then you must define what you mean by good, and then your definition is open to further definitions.

Minorities don't get to rule over majorities? Where were you when apartheid was around? Or when slaves outnumbered free men in the South?

It is true that what is 'good' is subject to interpretation. For example, to a racist 'good' is limited by race, ethnicity, etc. irregardless of behavior. In many religions, heaven is reserved for those practicing that religion, and no others will be 'good' enough, no matter what their behavior.

We have commandments from our god which state, 'thou shalt not kill', but in the same texts impose the death penalty and fight wars with the blessings of G-d. Does this mean that some killing is actually 'good'?

We do have laws against incest, and this is seen as both a moral decision and a decision for the social order to prevent inbreeding. We agree that children should be of a suitable age to have sex and marry, but what that age should be changes with society and the average age expectancy.

However, most people agree that homosexuality (as well as prostitution) have been around for thousands of years. In my opinion, that makes it a natural occurence. Passing laws against something which occurs naturally does not make any sense to me. It would be like outlawing albinos. The best example I can relate to was the practice of forcing left-handed people to become right-handed.

In past societies, there was no sympathy for left-handed persons. Lefthanders International shares stories of children forced to change their dominant hand in fear for their life, their safety and their acceptance. As left-handedness was seen as a curse, children caught using their left hand for reaching and grabbing were often scolded and forced to use their right hand in order to make it dominant. This was an enormous effort for both parent and child. It is stated that to accomplish the change in handedness, the left hand would be tied behind the child's back, down at their side or across their chest to make it unusable for normal activities, forcing the right hand to take its place.

Toddlers Today Resources - Left Hand

Some people are homosexuals. They desire to enter into monogamous social bonding in the same manner as heterosexuals. This implies that they will pay taxes, open joint checking accounts, purchase real estate and engage in other activities which benefit society at large. We keep on hearing studies that marriage is better for society and the individuals. If this is so, including more people into the ranks of marriage would be a 'good' thing.

As far as 'civil unions' are concerned. Maybe we can call all marriages performed by civil officials 'civil unions'. We can reserve the word 'marriage' for civil unions performed by clergy. This would satisfy the equal protection clause since no class of people would be discriminated against. Since 'clergy' is a large class and an accomodating minister could always be found, gay couples could be married. Since the state is reinforcing the rights of religious groups to perform marriages, and even reserving the term for them, they have no cause for objection. Since heterosexuals joined by judges or Justices of the Peace would also be subject to 'civil unions' if not married by clergy, they would have an incentive to be sure that the classification is not discriminatory in any legal treatment.

BTW, there was an interesting article recently about states rescinding the recognition of common law marriages. This shows that states still have a great deal of discretion when it comes to marriage.